I think it depends whether you buy into the narrative that there was too big a divide between the senior club players / staff and the new management. From the amount of stories and complaints made by people behind the scenes, I'm inclined to believe there was a divide (but not to believe all the stories that have been floating around). Regardless of whether Hurst and Doig were out of their depth, poor man-managers or whether the senior players disagreed with the new direction and threw their toys out of the pram, the end result still would have been a largely unpopular manager failing to implement his ideas and authority on a squad that, let's be honest, lacked quality and confidence. Do we think Hurst would have rectified the squad's problems in January? Put simply, I believe if Hurst had stayed in charge, we'd be relegated by now and, love or hate Lambert's PR offensive, Portman Road would be a much more subdued and angry place right now.
It would be almost impossible for our form to have been any worse than it has been under Lambert so by that token the least that Hurst could have achieved is the points haul that Lambert has, even if no lessons were learned, nothing had improved and he didn't do a better job than Lambert in the January window. Both Hull and Preston who were just as awful as Town in the opening phases of the season have climbed comfortably out of trouble without making a change. Making the change allowed the points gap to open up now that we probably can't bridge even though we have improved in recent weeks and are matching other teams again now. For our survival chances - a clear mistake to make a change and appoint Lambert. For longer term success - we will see next season. Had Lambert succeeded McCarthy? Probably a different story, but under the same conditions I think he'd still have struggled. Also, the discontent thing - even if you take the view that the old players should have control of the dressing room - has been proved now to have been a red herring.
In all fairness stretchy Hampy said we would NOT be in this situation if Hurst had stayed I beg to differ, if we had Lambert from start he wouldn't have been happy with the leading scorer leaving and wouldn't have brought in the rubbish that Hurst did, speculation of course.
To split hairs that is just my speculation and opinion, not a statement of fact. We don’t know what would have happened either way. I think it’s making the change again so soon that’s killed us. Either one of them replacing McCarthy and staying for the season I’m sure would have got us a higher points tally than what has unfolded. It’s not hindsight, I was saying this was likely to be the outcome at the time given the fixtures we had coming up. The timing of the change was suicidal.
Interesting debate this - I'll give my view. Not going to address ' had Lambert come in before the season ' as there's all kinds of possibilities for how that would have gone - further - I actually wanted either Hurst or Clark off Bristol Rovers ( thought they were the two standout candidates ) IF McCarthy were to go ( again not going to go into that ....! ) First off Hurst......... Dead man walking who the squad absolutely hated. Clueless pre season interms of transfers - I WILL give him a little leeway in that he came in very late, and I must admit I felt uncomfortable how late we hired a manager. Yes, in this day and age Hurst would no doubt have been communicating for weeks before the announcement with a transfer list of targets, however I always did feel we were behind our rivals right from day one. Coupled with his clueless transfer activity, there was the Exeter interview that was lapped up by many - incredibly naive from me. Players getting changed after a penalty shoot out, you've been in the job all of five minutes and you're perhaps using the rant you're entitled to x 1 / twice a season ( maximum ) so early on. They'd have had a long distance coach trip after, players would have got wind of this............ etc. Plenty more wrong - if Hurst had stuck around longer, the players would have ensured he would have got the sack whichever way you look at it. Player power etc, he 100% needed to go - good riddance to the out of depth idiot. Learn in the future Hurst, your record pre us was very good but you didn't have a clue what you were doing our end.......... is the nicest way I can put it. THAT SAID. Lambert came in, with us four points off safety ( five including goal difference ) with 31 games to play. Okay sure - he inherited a crap squad. Morale would have been rock bottom / confidence rock bottom.......... many upon many a factor I can give Lambert some leeway on also. Rome wasn't built in a day, however as you can see from Hurst above, it can sure be destroyed in one. Now to me, a 5 point swing over 31 games SHOULD be achievable - whether you're bottom / 17th trying to get 16th / outside the play offs hunting down / outside automatic etc. It's possible. Not once has that looked like happening under Lambert. He's been incredibly naive so far ( being generous ) and has I think tried far too much to please fans due to Norwich connections. Sure, he's got most onside, his off the pitch stuff has been superb etc - we probably have the best connection with a manager since George Burley I would say........... so I appreciate all that. Never had it with Royle or Mick ( our best two managers since Burley ) I think a manager coming into a situation like us should first try to sort the defence. You build from the back........ sort that, go further up the pitch etc. See Mick McCarthy when took over from Jewell. Lambert, NO. Tried to play far too open naive football from the off. I went to Dynamo v Zorya last night, 5-0 Dynamo. NEVER a 5-0 game, but Zorya were their own worst enemy. Kept trying to play all 90, giving the ball away in silly areas of the pitch, goal. Again, Lambert's P P G record is WORSE than Hurst's. That's factual, and is something I don't like. We'll see long-term whether hiring Lambert is the right call. Conclusion = Sacking Hurst was 100% the right decision. If we were aiming to stay in the division first and foremost, not sleepwalk into League 1, I would have much preferred a pragmatic Steve Bruce type of manager. I was unsure about Lambert at the start - not best pleased with him now - BUT long-term IF we go down ( appears we are ) AND bounce back first time, then maybe it was the right call. Time, will tell.
The gap opened up when we made the change, it's as clear as daylight. Win first match, Evans starts talking to managers - 12 games played - Town second bottom and level on points Klug takes charge - 14 games played - 4 points adrift, level on points with Hull Lambert appointed - 15 games played - 5 points adrift Lose four on the bounce - 21 games played - 8 points adrift, 7 adrift of 23rd. After that, assuming Hurst beats one of Millwall, Reading or Preston and picks up a few draws along the way - would Hurst then have kept us up? Would have been tight / tighter IMO. Our results have been absolutely disastrous, so much so that we are happy to be competing with other sides again and celebrating a defeat to Norwich and a run of draws as good performances. Atmosphere at Portman Road doesn't count toward the league table.
You're correct. It doesn't. But it is proof that something if being done in the right way at the club.. Having experienced Portman Road under McCarthy, Hurst and Lambert in the past 2 years I think it's clear that Lambert is at least keeping fans engaged with the club (and turning up to matches), something that Hurst couldn't Harness after the early excitement of the post McCarthy began to dwindle It doesn't count for a lot, but credit should be given to Lambert in galvanizing a stagnating fanbase in the face of inevitable doom..
From this point on, I’d rather have Lambert. In the summer we would have been better off with Lambert. But purely for our survival chances this season, appointing Lambert at that time looks to have been wrong.
It's worth reiterating that the atmosphere at Portman Road has noticeably improved over the past month or so, despite our league position and rather indifferent home form. I know it doesn't really matter or perhaps count for much to Town supporters based outside of Suffolk and who don't frequently attend games, but attending matches in the latter halves of Hurst and Mick's time in charge felt like a chore; the atmosphere was flat, supporters were apathetic, and it was just a rather joyless experience (bar the goals, which became a rarity in itself). That's all been covered before, of course. But the match day experience is now a lot more positive, fans are engaged, and groups like Blue Action (who have been engaged and encouraged by Lambert) have made games more fun. The results have been inconsistent and there are several aspects of Lambert's tenure that I think he's got wrong, but you cannot deny large parts of the match-going fanbase have been reinvigorated and that must count as a big tick in the Lambert 'pros' column. I think he's relentless PR drive looks a little desperate, and it might wear thin if we go on another losing run, but showing that he cares for the club, its traditions, and its fanbase is a welcome tonic to what we've mostly put up with over the past decade and a bit. I don't blame some supporters for going over the top in their praise for him, he genuinely seems to respect them and makes an active effort to keep them onside.
That’s all great nuggets and without being at Portman Road we can tell the difference on the telly and at away games and on social media. But we are still getting relegated and Blue Action is not Lambert’s initiative, it started before he got here. Would it have been better to dig out results and survive? If we don’t hit the ground running next season in League One how long is that atmosphere and love in for Lambert going to last?
I was resigned to relegation back in December, in fact I think most of us on here were. This is not meant as a wind up attempt, Hampy, but I think you regularly overlook and downplay just how low the club and the fanbase was when Hurst got the sack and the extent of the damage he did to this squad. Whatever way you dress it up, this is widely acknowledged to be one of the worst Ipswich squads in our history, and rightly so. There are a lot of average players here and a lot of players who most likely won't play Championship football again. When Lambert's appointment was announced, and it was not an appointment I was particularly impressed with at the time, there was a lot of gallows humour about how Lambert would be a brilliant manager for keeping us up, and even a couple of comments about how we should have a statue of him put up if he achieved survival. Tongue in cheek, of course, but a sign of the despair and frustration that had descended on the club. Most of the national media had written us off as relegation candidates in pre-season, correctly as it turned out as we scoffed at those predictions at the time and our pre-season predictions ranged from play offs to lower mid-table. There are some things Lambert has done which I disagree, for example he kept faith with the same starting line-up for several games when the likes of Spence, Knudsen, Skuse, Edwards, and Roberts were well out of form and should have been dropped sooner. I thought Lambert was naive to have us set up as an attractive footballing side because, despite that being used as an early positive for Lambert's time in charge, it was not getting results. But he's learning from those mistakes and he has now set up a dynamic, attacking Town side that has gone three games unbeaten and has captured the imagination of some Town supporters. I know Blue Action was founded before Lambert, I never said that Lambert started the group, but he met with some of their members and went out of his way to encourage what they were trying to do and they've become more prevalent and influential on the atmosphere as a result. I'm sure if you asked Lambert whether he'd take the results or being in most Town fans' good books, he'd go for the results, of course he would. But it was always going to be a massive challenge getting this squad to survive in the Championship. He has mostly added well in the January transfer window, despite our league position and the harsh reality that we were an unattractive proposition to many players, and that was largely due to results in the first half of the season, which Lambert cannot be blamed for too much. I'm still not overly enthused about Lambert, but he's the best that we can have right now. Players, staff, and fans clearly like and respect him, so that counts for something following on from Hurst. I'd be willing to give Lambert the summer to rebuild and the first half of next season in League One before looking for a change if we're underperforming. Appreciate people may think differently, or may even want Lambert to stay on for the long-term, but that's my perspective on the situation.
I don't think we have to worry about Big Time Charlie Knudsen any more, he comes back after an absence in which his agent was scrabbling frantically around trying to find a Club that wanted a World Cup full back, no takers, he then gives a goal away which costs us the match and then gets sent off which probably cost us the next match, now he's suspended and not available, just kick his useless arse out the door Lambert..
I get the argument that he's our best left-back (on paper), but his form has been poor this season and he has made several mistakes in recent weeks. I tried defending him before the Wigan match, and I stand by my opinion that his best games over the past year have typically come when he's been playing at centre-back, but he won't be here beyond the summer. He is not the answer to our left-back problems. I'd give Elder another chance at left back, as Kenlock's form has also been poor over the past month. I just hope Collins comes back into the side sooner rather than later, while there's still a slim chance of survival, because he noticeably improves this defence.
I don't downplay it but people have unrealistic expectations and assumptions that I don't agree with - a) that you can turn the squad around in one window b) that every player he signed is going to work out c) that he had much say if any in strikers going out d) that because we started badly it would carry on that way e) that the dressing room should be run by the players "Whatever way you dress it up, this is widely acknowledged to be one of the worst Ipswich squads in our history, and rightly so. There are a lot of average players here and a lot of players who most likely won't play Championship football again." True but because we were poor to start with and also because it's been a disaster of a season, not because most of the players coming in didn't have the potential to step up in better circumstances. I have plenty of criticism of Hurst but it's all about strategy, nothing else. My reservations were about whether he was too arrogant to change it - but really as an owner, if you're only going to give a manager a couple of months then don't appoint him in the first place.
As I mentioned when Hurst got sacked, and one of the reasons why I persevered with Hurst longer than some on here, is that he probably walked into this job with the reasonable expectation that this team was competitive, well-structured and resourced, and had a professional set-up. What he got was a club on the decline with an owner who has not provided the required levels of investment for a few years and a culture where the manager oversaw pretty much all aspects at the club. He also got three want-away players, as you alluded to, and also an over-reliance on loan players from last season (CCV, Connolly, and Celina) which left further holes in the squad. Also, the fact we didn't have a proper sports science system in place until the beginning of this season is also a perfect demonstration of just how behind the curve we are / had been as a football club. I agree that you cannot turn the squad around in one window and of course not all signings will work out, but that summer window required several experienced, quality players to come in and step up to the first team, due to the departures. The only Hurst signings who have done consistently well (as well as you can play in a relegation campaign) are Chalobah and Pennington. The rest have been below average to downright forgettable, and don't forget that Hurst spent a lot of money in that summer transfer window. My opinion is that the fact Hurst almost exclusively targeted lower league players, and sacrificed divisional experience for several gambles, has been the major contributing factor in our relegation. It's the harsh reality, but Hurst needed somebody with a bit of experience to help him make better transfers. Reporters and pundits outside the club identified this would be an issue at the start of the season. Some on here (not myself, admitted) expressed doubts about signing too many lower league players. They have been vindicated, not that it's a competition. I agree that player power has got out of hand. Maybe that applied here at Town, depending on just how badly Hurst and Doig were in the man-manager stakes. But the fact that there was widespread criticism and rumours coming out of the club from club staff and that there were leaks (even a leaked team-sheet an hour before the Brentford game) shows you how dissatisfied people were working under Hurst. I had no faith that Hurst would turn things around. We got a lucky away win over a naive Swansea side and suffered regular defeats, mostly pretty routine losses where the only signs of life would come after we'd go two goals down and the opposition took their foot off the gas. Let's not even mention his baffling tactical inconsistency and constant chopping and changing. Again, it's a debate that's been had on here regularly, so I'll leave it in the past, but I struggle to see how you can vindicate Hurst. He was the wrong man at the wrong time. He arguably needed experience at a bigger lower league club like Charlton or Portsmouth before making the step up to us. I'm sure he has a few regrets about his time at Portman Road, but I don't think he'll be getting a Championship job in the foreseeable future and I completely understand why Championship club owners would come to that conclusion based on his time here.
Some of the players have been let down badly by both managers. Donacien, Nsiala, Edwards particularly. Others - Nolan, Harrison, Jackson have had a bite of the cherry but haven't been shown any love. Part of the job of a football manager is to improve players. If you are going to change it around it takes time to bed in. Players have certain attributes - height, speed, injuries - that you can't alter. But after that most of it comes down to hard work, strategy, coaching, psychology and chemistry.
In a cruel twist of fate, i think the players signed by Hurst will be the backbone of our team next season, and will be big players for us in getting us promoted. Jackson and Harrison up top, Bishop, Downes, Dozzell in the middle, Chambo and Nsiala the CB pairing, with Donacien and Kenlock the full backs. Be nice if both Judge and Keane signed permanently too
