Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

I didn’t read the one syllable posts mate

What was interesting (to me) was how angry and passionate I was about the Greek situation and the EU bail out. Since then I think I have fallen into a default defensive mode about the EU in response to the extreme anti EU stuff. I was right back then, what the EU and banks did to the ordinary people of Greece stinks. Note to self - no knee jerk reactions. Think man think!


It would be a disaster, but I’d vote for Yanis Varoufakis, the biker academic revolutionary, without a second thought. Just for the laughs.

Did you see the programmes about the EU in BBC recently (Beth mentioned them).
Very interesting and in a way the first one made me more sympathetic with the EU and the way we (Britain ((or Cameron to be fair))) expected them to just roll over and do as we wanted.
Whereas the second episode reminded me what’s ****s they are in the EU .

It’s also interesting how the different personalities in government have a massive influence on what direction we go. For example It was quite obvious, to me anyway, that Cameron and Szarkozy detested each other and nothing between those two was ever gonna end in a good way.
Well worth watching.

 

[Staines R's]

I don't reckon that Corbyn and McDonnell necessarily aspire to the workers owning the means of production. I think what we would see under Corbyn or McDonnell is a bit of overdue re-balancing towards the kind of mixed economy we had before Thatcher and Major sold everything off. Re-nationalisation of the railways and utilities is a vote-winning manifesto pledge.

We might differ in opinions on Brexit Stroller, but we most certainly agree on other things.
Great post and couldn’t put it better myself.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Sorry, Yorkshire, but life is too short to read and respond to long rants. If Raving has the discipline to set out succinctly the points he wants to make - as I have done to him - then I'll respond. If not, faced with a page giving the history of the world, my eyes glaze over and I move on

It wasn't a rant and you contributed to half if its content.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

.

That is so short even the Twitterati would have difficulty interpreting that!

 

[sb_73]

Did you see the programmes about the EU in BBC recently (Beth mentioned them).
Very interesting and in a way the first one made me more sympathetic with the EU and the way we (Britain ((or Cameron to be fair))) expected them to just roll over and do as we wanted.
Whereas the second episode reminded me what’s ****s they are in the EU .

It’s also interesting how the different personalities in government have a massive influence on what direction we go. For example It was quite obvious, to me anyway, that Cameron and Szarkozy detested each other and nothing between those two was ever gonna end in a good way.
Well worth watching.

I haven’t seen them, but I saw Beth’s post and will take a look. Doesn’t surprise me about Cameron and Szarkozy, two men who think they are the bee’s knees, God’s gift, natural born alpha males etc. Probably spent most of their time pissing out territories. Macron belongs to the same club.

I don't reckon that Corbyn and McDonnell necessarily aspire to the workers owning the means of production. I think what we would see under Corbyn or McDonnell is a bit of overdue re-balancing towards the kind of mixed economy we had before Thatcher and Major sold everything off. Re-nationalisation of the railways and utilities is a vote-winning manifesto pledge.

I might take a look back at some of the early stuff on here, but I often cringe when I read stuff I've posted. I really enjoyed Swords's stuff.

We differ then on the true agenda. Corbyn and McDonnell have been militant moles within labour for decades, and not very well hidden ones. If you look at who surrounds Corbyn now several of his key advisors are very recent switchers from the communist party, which had a very clear plan of gaining power through entryism into the Labour Party. These guys major on protecting parliamentary democracy and ‘democracy’ of all kinds, but its just a vehicle for political, social and economic ends.

But you might be right about the net effect. A really radical Labour Government would quickly have the edges knocked off it, might achieve a little shift back towards a mixed economy as a result.

 

[Deleted.......]

I can see the emotions here but has anyone actually seen debates come out about brexit? My family, my friends and my colleagues the few times i have debated/heard debate has all been civilized. The only anger i see is what the news reports and obviously any marches that go on but from a day to day perspective nothing really

I reckon my main sets of friends are pretty much 50/50 split on this. Yeah we discuss it but as soon as it gets too heated (and usually because someone says something that's blatantly incorrect or refuses to accept something that is - on both sides) most of us just disengage. I'm buggered if I'm losing mates over something like this.

 

[danishqp]

Not aimed at you or anyone in particular, but the tiring thing for me (and I’m guilty of it) is the black and white way all of this stuff is discussed on here and in the real world. Truth is it’s all shades of grey. The EU has serious problems, but it’s not the ‘Fourth Reich’ (I cant begin to describe the despair I feel when I see that written, so please stop it Turkish). It has achieved a great deal in stunningly complicated circumstances. It needs urgent reform. I hate this ‘we are the victims of these evil people’ attitude. On the other hand there is an obvious, but complex, argument for leaving, it shouldn’t be dismissed as the plan of charlatans and cheats supported by idiots. But it’s been reduced to an us v them argument, some testosterone driven test of strength and it’s ****ing exhausting, pointless and ultimately futile. I’m ashamed of myself for getting sucked into it sometimes. But the way the leave arguments are presented has left me completely unsympathetic to the concerns of the people presenting them. I think somewhere near the beginning of this gigantic thread I posted that although I’m pro the EU concept there is something about the British (or probably English) attitude to it that means it’s probably not right for us, or for them to have us in but not really wanting to be. I’ll try to dig that post up. But the years of bitching since then have destroyed any sense of balance I had. Whatever the conclusion the wounds will take years to heal.

Col is having a little rest from here. Would that I had the strength of character to join him.

I know you have since made further comment to this providing further context. I still wanted yesterday evening to make a considered response, so now I am free from the annual appraisal process of my staff, as the inimitable John Inman would say, I'm free!!
I would like to add my own context in writing as you refuse the continued offers of libations in the Whiskey belt!!
As a young man I had way too much an interest in politics and history, at Uni I even crashed on lectures for the guinea pigs taking EEC Law at Southampton!! - What a pleb. Eurocommunism and State by Santiago Carillo was my own bible along with Stranger in a strange land.
Have seen first hand the benefits that the EU has provided to my mother country Spain. Without a doubt it accelerated the progress from a basically Third World country to what it was in 2005. I have enjoyed and loved the benefits of ease of travel, have rejoiced at the genuine striving towards real equality amongst the people of Europe. I fully understand Merkel, I respect her strength, her indifatigability and indominatable spirit. Her ability to remeber her Iron Bloc roots and her wish for all to have the right for a fair chance.
The EEC and thereafter the EU is not the Fourth Reich or any equivelant to the same- you have clarified your irked mood already. It is a genuinely well meaning organisation with some very excellent people working there. Not least my dear and beautiful friend Magrethe Vestager, no one could have ever been tougher on big business as the Competition Minister - she really blushes when I call her "Thinking man's crumpet" - and I know she likes it cause she never brings up Me Too!!

So, there are some magnificent parts to the EU and some really great people working there with genuine belief and intentions.

Here's the however ... that is not enough, I've seen first hand how Spain has become a mirror image of the EU taking on a literal need for gigantic beaurocracy. I've seen first hand how the acceleration in progress was so fast and so unfounded in base, that the catastrophe that has happened since 2008 was so predictable.
I've seen how the youth of my country have been set back for generations, how the greed for services and growth has overtaken anything meaningful.
I've seen what has happened in Greece and Italy - pure, pure bullying.
This magnificent club has deteriorated (in my view only of course) due to one mighty and important member - I used to use the analogy to my dear father that it was great that we were all members of this great club, but that we were not all able to eat at the same table, selecting our food and wine from the same menu.
Ask yourself Stan, would the "progress" have happened in the PIGS anyway - even without the forces of the EU?
Would any progress have likely had a stronger base and premise?
How much debt ration did these countries have before joining the Euro?
Who has made the money from the insane debt they are all now in?
Has Germany played too heavy a role as the "heaviest member"?

That there are Counts in the EU? - No doubt.
Are there Counts in every single individual parliament of countries the EU? - Doesn't even need anything written.
Has the EU become too big, too apart from the initial goals and values? - I think so
Do I think that the EU needs a revamp? - I think so
Do I think it can happen? - I'm not sure, it may have gotten too big, agendas too close.

My own thoughts? - Like it or not there is the need for a tier system, you cannot have countries such as Lithuania, Slovakia, Greece etc. trading on same terms and conditions as a Germany, France, NL, or even DK.
We will make them progress rapidly ala PIGS, only to see them face these so severe "payment terms" later.
It will be a difficult sell as who wants to be considered as second rate? - Well, we've had the ratings sytems for years already.

What frighten me the most? - The move towards the right, that we may well lose so much of what we have gained as a continent. That the leadership this World needs from Europe, simply isn't there.
Is it binary? Hell it isn't. Can and could the UK be a natural part of this club? Of course it could be, it just needs to sort out the antiquated system it has had since basically the C13th.

But you must, I say you must, check out Magrethe

Side note - Have been cycling to and from work since start of year, no alcohol, no fatty foods, 9 KGs have come off - and I'm bored stiff!!!!

Up those Regal RRRs

 

[sb_73]

I know you have since made further comment to this providing further context. I still wanted yesterday evening to make a considered response, so now I am free from the annual appraisal process of my staff, as the inimitable John Inman would say, I'm free!!
I would like to add my own context in writing as you refuse the continued offers of libations in the Whiskey belt!!
As a young man I had way too much an interest in politics and history, at Uni I even crashed on lectures for the guinea pigs taking EEC Law at Southampton!! - What a pleb. Eurocommunism and State by Santiago Carillo was my own bible along with Stranger in a strange land.
Have seen first hand the benefits that the EU has provided to my mother country Spain. Without a doubt it accelerated the progress from a basically Third World country to what it was in 2005. I have enjoyed and loved the benefits of ease of travel, have rejoiced at the genuine striving towards real equality amongst the people of Europe. I fully understand Merkel, I respect her strength, her indifatigability and indominatable spirit. Her ability to remeber her Iron Bloc roots and her wish for all to have the right for a fair chance.
The EEC and thereafter the EU is not the Fourth Reich or any equivelant to the same- you have clarified your irked mood already. It is a genuinely well meaning organisation with some very excellent people working there. Not least my dear and beautiful friend Magrethe Vestager, no one could have ever been tougher on big business as the Competition Minister - she really blushes when I call her "Thinking man's crumpet" - and I know she likes it cause she never brings up Me Too!!

So, there are some magnificent parts to the EU and some really great people working there with genuine belief and intentions.

Here's the however ... that is not enough, I've seen first hand how Spain has become a mirror image of the EU taking on a literal need for gigantic beaurocracy. I've seen first hand how the acceleration in progress was so fast and so unfounded in base, that the catastrophe that has happened since 2008 was so predictable.
I've seen how the youth of my country have been set back for generations, how the greed for services and growth has overtaken anything meaningful.
I've seen what has happened in Greece and Italy - pure, pure bullying.
This magnificent club has deteriorated (in my view only of course) due to one mighty and important member - I used to use the analogy to my dear father that it was great that we were all members of this great club, but that we were not all able to eat at the same table, selecting our food and wine from the same menu.
Ask yourself Stan, would the "progress" have happened in the PIGS anyway - even without the forces of the EU?
Would any progress have likely had a stronger base and premise?
How much debt ration did these countries have before joining the Euro?
Who has made the money from the insane debt they are all now in?
Has Germany played too heavy a role as the "heaviest member"?

That there are Counts in the EU? - No doubt.
Are there Counts in every single individual parliament of countries the EU? - Doesn't even need anything written.
Has the EU become too big, too apart from the initial goals and values? - I think so
Do I think that the EU needs a revamp? - I think so
Do I think it can happen? - I'm not sure, it may have gotten too big, agendas too close.

My own thoughts? - Like it or not there is the need for a tier system, you cannot have countries such as Lithuania, Slovakia, Greece etc. trading on same terms and conditions as a Germany, France, NL, or even DK.
We will make them progress rapidly ala PIGS, only to see them face these so severe "payment terms" later.
It will be a difficult sell as who wants to be considered as second rate? - Well, we've had the ratings sytems for years already.

What frighten me the most? - The move towards the right, that we may well lose so much of what we have gained as a continent. That the leadership this World needs from Europe, simply isn't there.
Is it binary? Hell it isn't. Can and could the UK be a natural part of this club? Of course it could be, it just needs to sort out the antiquated system it has had since basically the C13th.

But you must, I say you must, check out Magrethe

Side note - Have been cycling to and from work since start of year, no alcohol, no fatty foods, 9 KGs have come off - and I'm bored stiff!!!!

Up those Regal RRRs

Jolly D old chap. Do you think the EU is still salvageable? Needs a lot of vision, which I don’t see coming from anywhere. I can’t tell you what progress the PIGs would have made out of the EU, but I guess they would have been on the same treadmill - chasing ever more wildly after economic growth, investment, consumer spending. Our metrics are ****ed. Everywhere is looking the same politically and economically, thankfully culturally and gastronomically the brilliant diversity remains.....for now.

I try not to think about the rise of the right/nationalists, it’s too terrifying. The only upside is that with the instant flow of information we have nowadays they won’t have an easy ride and if they get to the top they might not be there too long. Salvini is busily attacking everyone else to find someone to blame for Italy’s woes, but unless those ****ers deliver something for the Italians they won’t be around long. The resistance will come from the congenital left wingers of Bologna and central Italy. Sadly the examples of Russia and China make my hopes look a little flimsy.

Magrethe looks like a formidable and entertaining character.

That’s an extreme regime. It’s only spirits that I’ve stopped drinking, the wine and beer flow undiminished......

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[DT’s Socks]

....if you share his core beliefs. I don’t, though I did once, and they are very tempting.


On another point, I read through the first 25 pages of this thread yesterday, in search of something which I failed to find. It was brilliant until a couple of twats who are banned/no longer post joined in. All pre Brexit stuff, varied, passionate and mostly polite . Swords (not one of the twats) winding people up but man he was clever. Shame we are all now single issue obsessed and not listening to each other.

Lovely bloke Swords and yes clever with it

 

[danishqp]

Jolly D old chap. Do you think the EU is still salvageable? Needs a lot of vision, which I don’t see coming from anywhere. I can’t tell you what progress the PIGs would have made out of the EU, but I guess they would have been on the same treadmill - chasing ever more wildly after economic growth, investment, consumer spending. Our metrics are ****ed. Everywhere is looking the same politically and economically, thankfully culturally and gastronomically the brilliant diversity remains.....for now.

I try not to think about the rise of the right/nationalists, it’s too terrifying. The only upside is that with the instant flow of information we have nowadays they won’t have an easy ride and if they get to the top they might not be there too long. Salvini is busily attacking everyone else to find someone to blame for Italy’s woes, but unless those ****ers deliver something for the Italians they won’t be around long. The resistance will come from the congenital left wingers of Bologna and central Italy. Sadly the examples of Russia and China make my hopes look a little flimsy.

Magrethe looks like a formidable and entertaining character.

That’s an extreme regime. It’s only spirits that I’ve stopped drinking, the wine and beer flow undiminished......

I suppose I'm exactly like my "home country" - way too excessive and needing to pay heavily thereafter.
Italy? - Plenty of woes but for me, the very best in food and wine - there I go again, oh this self inflicted austerity!!

 

[kiwiqpr]

tax or fee

Fury over 'sneaky' £6,000 death tax set to hit almost 300,000 families after Ministers classed it as a 'fee' in alleged bid to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny

• Families could face bill of £6,000 for legal control over deceased person’s estate
• Labour’s Gloria De Piero said that the charges were a ‘tax on grieving families’
• Ministry of Justice could rake in an extra £185m a year from charges by 2022/23

By Daniel Martin Policy Editor For The Daily Mail
Published: 09:03 AEDT, 8 February 2019 | Updated: 09:56 AEDT, 8 February 2019
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Ministers were last night accused of sneaking through a stealth ‘death tax’ that will hit grieving families with bills of up to £6,000.
In an alleged abuse of power, a huge hike in probate charges was effectively waved through Parliament after ministers categorised it as a ‘fee’ rather than a tax.
It meant they could avoid full parliamentary scrutiny for the controversial increase, which will see almost 300,000 families a year face larger probate bills from April.
Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable said last night: ‘This is a clear abuse of executive power: bringing in a tax hike without proper parliamentary scrutiny.’ Labour’s justice spokesman Gloria De Piero said the charges were a ‘tax on grieving families’.

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Because it was described as a ‘fee’, the probate increase required only a change to an obscure type of legislation called a statutory instrument. Yesterday morning, this was approved by the secretive ‘delegated legislation committee’ of MPs, by a narrow vote of nine to eight.
Statutory instruments are usually passed by the Commons ‘on the nod’ within days. It is rare for them to be overturned, and would depend on an MP issuing a formal protest in the chamber.
Critics say the way the hike in probate charges has been quietly pushed through risks creating a ‘dangerous precedent for future tax rises’.

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Sir Vince said: ‘The fees themselves have to be paid up front, so the vastly increased sums involved will now see bereaved relatives having to take out loans just to access what has been left to them.
‘This clearly isn’t defensible, and it would appear ministers are doing all that is possible to avoid defending it in the full glare of the House of Commons chamber.’
The Law Society is campaigning against the change, and has called on MPs to oppose it. Hugo Forshaw, the society’s political adviser, added: ‘Not only is this an unfair way to squeeze money out of grieving and vulnerable families, but these fees are also not fees at all – they are a stealth tax.
‘This deception matters because of an ancient constitutional principle. Since Magna Carta, kings and governments alike have been required to put legislation before Parliament for approval before raising a new tax.’

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Labour’s justice spokesman Gloria De Piero said the charges were a ‘tax on grieving families’

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Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable has slammed the death tax as being an 'abuse of executive power'
Mr Forshaw added: ‘If the Government is allowed to get away with such an egregious misuse of its fee-levying powers, it will set a dangerous precedent for future tax rises.’
John O’Connell, of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said: ‘We condemn this proposed stealth tax on grieving families.’ Families must apply for probate to administer their loved ones’ finances when they die. There is a fixed fee of £215 – or £155 for families who use a solicitor. Probate must typically be granted before families can release any money from an estate – for example by selling a house.
But the Government is now linking the charge to the size of the estate, with the levy ranging from £250 to as much as £6,000 for wealth estimated at more than £2 million. Inheritances of less than £50,000 will be exempt – compared with the current threshold of £5,000.
There is no discount for using a solicitor under the new scheme.
Many people will not have to pay probate when their spouse dies because it is not needed if they share their house and bank accounts.
A ministry spokesman confirmed a vote on the increase would take place only if an MP rises to object. There will be no debate on the measure. She added: ‘Our system will see an additional 25,000 bereaved families pay no probate fees at all each year.
‘These fees are not a tax and they are being fully scrutinised and debated in both Houses.’

Will Gloria De Piero or cable rise to object

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

It wasn't a rant and you contributed to half if its content.

True and there was no need to repeat it

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

That is so short even the Twitterati would have difficulty interpreting that!

Agree, I've taken this one to an extreme

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

What did you say ? I wasn’t listening

What did who say?!

 

[kiwiqpr]

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[kiwiqpr]

1 million people in reeducation camps


China ‘forcing Muslims to eat pork and drink alcohol’ for lunar new year festival
Accusation comes after officials in Xinjiang launched ‘anti-halal’ campaign

• Jon Sharman
• 1 day ago

The Independent

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A ‘vocational skills education centre’ in Dabancheng, China ( Reuters )
Chinese authorities have reportedly forced Muslims in the Xinjiang region to eat pork and drink alcohol during the country’s lunar new year holiday amid an alleged crackdown on Islam.
People living in the Ili Kazakh autonomous prefecture were invited to events marking the celebration and told they could be taken to re-education camps if they did not take part, according to Radio Free Asia (RFA).
“Kazakh people in Xinjiang have never [eaten pork]. Starting last year, some people have been forced to eat pork so they can celebrate a festival belonging to the Han Chinese,” the US government-run station quoted an anonymous resident on its website as saying.
A previous report published by a Christian NGO, ChinaAid, claimed in February 2018 that Muslims in Xinjiang had been forced to take part in new year celebrations, which included eating food they had not prepared themselves and the contents of which they could not ascertain.
It was also reported last October that officials in the capital of Xinjiang, Urumqi, had launched a campaign against halal products.
China is engaged in what it has called an anti-extremism and anti-separatism drive in heavily-Muslim Xinjiang, an autonomous region home to large populations of ethnic Uighur and Kazakh peoples.
Rights groups and foreign governments have accused Beijing of systematically cracking down on Islam in the province, saying that up to one million people are being held in so-called re-education camps where they are forced to recite Communist Party propaganda and disavow their beliefs.
Former detainees have claimed they were forced to consume pork and alcohol while inside.
In a sign of the scale of the project, Han Chinese officials and civilians have reportedly been sent to live with Muslim families for surveillance purposes, and Beijing has unveiled plans to “sinicise” Islam within four years.
China has called the camps “vocational education centres”, insisting it protects the religion and culture of ethnic minorities and that security measures in Xinjiang are needed to counter groups which incite violence.
This week groups including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International appealed to the United Nations Human Rights Council to send an international fact-finding mission to the region.
Additional reporting by Reuters

 

[Deleted.......]

Sir Christopher Chope - discuss

 

[bobmid]

Sir Christopher Chope - discuss

He's not worth discussing

 

[Deleted.......]

He's not worth discussing

True!