Following on from the England game thread thought I would ask about England and being English. Now Iâm not saying Iâm in the right by any means or indeed in the majority but am I proud of being English? Well Iâm certainly not ashamed about it but chest thumping I am English and proud, not really. Now why is that, is it that the BNP have hijacked the union jack and Englishness? Is it that the old institutions of England, indeed Britishness are not what they were, the Royal family, politicians, the police and I feel remote from them? Is it that because I am older I feel out of touch with youth, the future and the present? Is it multi-culture, my football team are from all over the world, the England manager is not English, if I want a Indian or Chinese takeaway I no longer think Iâm have some foreign meal, its all part of England. Iâm not saying its any of the above, just asking the questions, trying to provoke debate.
Though provoking that Syd...... You talk about one group hijacking the Englishness of England, and then accept others views, and from a generation where a certain MP talked about England in his famous speech. To me the idea of being English is how we are portrayed throughout the world, we are still looked upon as a great nation. The inventors and creators of many things, and when it comes to football, well the prem teams are more famous than tne national team. You mentioned Britishness, well for me its Englishness, born and raised there and forever proud of it, no matter where i am.
But Commo, does you living abroad make you feel it more and did you used to be in the forces, if so does that make you feel more patriotic? Again just asking because I dont know.
For me englishness isnt something to be proud of. We could easily have been born in scotland if things went differently. But thats by the by. Im more appreciative of being english. Things like how we conduct ourselves in a pub, where no one needs telling that you wont get served at your seats or that everyone knows there place along the bar. Its the the little things that are quintesentially british or english that i love. I couldnt give a toss about the flag waving, or the national anthem playing. There is more to being english than a flag and a song.
Always patriotic Syd, and being away i tend to find it comes out more, being surrounded by different nationalities every day, we tend to be more defensive of our home country. As for the forces thing, well im not necessary a royalist, as i only believe in the immediate family, ie the monarchy down to grandchildren, not the whole rest of them. Don't forget im not long past 40 yet would still like to see national service re-introduced, as i believe everyone who wants to benefit from the uk should pay something in return....No matter where they come from or what nationality...Live there, pay something in return. Maybe a way to see how many new arrivals actually want to be there, rather than a free meal ticket... Right i'll stop there or i could go on all night. And if anyone thinks im racist, best get your facts right.
Thats my problem with this thread. I would like to contribute on what I like about being English, what I feel is right, what I feel is wrong. Daren't tho because of the racist digs that may come along. I suppose thats what being English / British amounts to! Not causing affront! x
Well, my patriotism is insidiously and constantly reduced/reducing the more i observe our sick society, to a point where i'm unsure i can continue to live in this country. I love this country and would love this country to be what i believe it could be, but have no faith anyone has the power, or even the will, to reform.
In between my time spent commenting on here, I have been researching material which I think is quite relevent to this question.. It's all to do with global networks, forms of global governance and new ICT and communication technologies which are thought by many to be undermining the nation-state. This along with the growing multi-culturalism that undoubtedly exists in most Western societies these days, has, in my opinion, certainly caused changes to how people feel about being English or British. However, for me this just increases the importance for supporting the nation in events such as international football, rugby or any other national sporting or non-sporting events, as I believe it is a sphere in which national pride and togetherness (regardless of ethnicity) can be nurtured, and this is very important for our future if conflict is to be avoided.
There lies the problem Bobby, what we find quite innocent, is then percieved by others as being racist. When it reaches a stage that it is frowned upon to fly or wave your your national flag, or celebrate your national day, or having to change the names of holidays in case it causes offence, then we have to ask ourselves why? what has gone wrong. Knew i shouldn't have started on this subject.
It was very strange going to Madrid, there were people from all over the world, Americans and Italians in particular, that were immensely proud of their country. Pretty much everywhere I went there were Italians shouting I-TAL-IA!!!!, and natives shouting VIVA ESPANA!!! Our group was all from Jersey, and I was very proud that we weren't from England as such, but from our bit of England, we waved the Jersey flag rather than the Union Jack. If that sort of thing happened in England (which it is rumoured to be in 2017), I think people will look on it with much more sarcasm than it was, and I think that's a shame, there is now a very fine line between being patriotic and being a thug.
To be honest. Having lived in the States for nearly 10 years it doesn't take much to get a crowd of Americans chanting 'U S A, U S A'. I've seen them chant it when a new pizza parlour was giving away free samples in Austin, Texas. I kid you not.
Tell me about it! I've got to write a 4,000 word essay about ICT's and networks and their effect on nation-states, using subject matter as diverse as the EU to Al-Qaeda...There's so much research material to go at, it's going to be difficult to know when to stop researching and to start writing what will thankfully be my final piece of work towards my degree...
I'm not proud to be English. I don't think of my nationality as something that "defines me", it was something I was born, not something I achieved. I can't see what there is to be proud of in where you were born, it's like being proud of your skin colour or your star sign. It's relevant to who we are, or who I think I am. I agree with Uni-Macken about the quintessential stuff, in some ways I'm quintessentially English and I can see reason to be proud of that because it's things you do. Relating that to sport I have no empathy with the national football team because I don't feel the players represent what it means to be English, therefore I feel no obligation to support them. On the other hand, someone like Graham Hill defined British quintessentiallism, and is one of my favourite sportsman because of that. If he happened to have been born abroad though it wouldn't alter my admiration of the man. Basically it's what you do that's important, not who you are.
but do these two things not fit together? I am proud of being from a Durham mining village because its the values given by that community, I believe, that helped make me what I am. I moved away from it, became very successful and quite rich in material things, mingled with successful people. Then circumstances brought me back to a mining village and I now live amongst poor people in material terms. I dont like what I was and find being with these people makes me far happier. Thats just me but I am still proud to say my dad was a pitman, for a time I kept that quiet, something that shames me.
You wasn't born with those values though, you chose to be, or allowed yourself to be influenced by your environment and your community. You could just as easily have shunned them.
I dont see being proud of your country as being the same as being proud to be white. The former is patriotism and the latter racism. As a country we collectively have a say on our government and our way of life an the ethics we adopt more so than people care to think. Ie as a country we are accepting of everyone and would NEVER ban the burqa or kick out the romas, like France did. Thats not what we stand for. At the same time though I feel ashamed when we are linked with torture in Libya yet I feel proud at things like helping the Libyan rebels to overthrow their tyrant. I don't feel we're better than any other country but that doesn't stop me being proud of my country. It makes me sad though that hanging a flag up or celebrating st george's day brings up BNP connotations. The Americans hang their flag up with pride and the irish celebrate st Patrick's day, yet we're made to feel guilty or racist if we display a touch of patriotism- we should be allowed to be proud of our country and what we believe in as a nation. (Ie the complete opposite of nick griffins filthy views).
Wish we could be more like the Yanks. Mind you, they are actually ours by conquest.............. Damn you, Cornwallis! x
