Off Topic UK / EU Future

Abosutely agree, EVERYONE PLAY NICELY!

 

I think it should be reiterated here that absolutely nobody is unwelcome here as a result of their political beliefs - the only issue here is their manner of debating and that it should avoid either insults, or belittling of other posters. There would be no point in debating if we all shared the same ideas. If we were all Kropotkinist Anarcho Communists on here planning our next commune it would be boring as hell. Maybe we should forget that we are online and imagine we were stood opposite people in a pub - where the possibility of broken teeth exists if we step out of line. I also think that these user names are problematic - if everything written was done using real names our interaction may be different - there is too much anonymity on boards like this.

 

Seeing as I live in a commune does that make me a Kropotkinist Anarcho Communist? I must admit that I had never thought of myself that way before.

I am not sure that using real names would make a great deal of difference. I know maybe the real names of perhaps 50% of our posters, but when on here think of them firstly of who they wish to be known as. I do however think that the lack of facial reaction creates a problem.

 

I choose not to put my face on the internet, Frenchie, but I would like to point out in this year of fake news that I am incredibly good-looking!

 

The problem is that SH can't see my rippling muscles, tattoos and golden earrings Frenchie We all know that his real identity is Jeremy Corbyn anyway.

 

I can imagine a ring through your nose.

 

A couple of my grandsons are dead against Brexit, I'm not sure I dare educate them on xmas day.

How to not let Brexit ruin your family Christmas

 

Just to be thoughtful for a moment, I don't know any teenager who actually thinks that Brexit is a good idea. You and I SH are getting older, and we do not know how long we have to live with the consequences of this. My grandsons who are in their middle teens are furious that the rights they grew up to believe were theirs are being taken away from them by a political party that has now made a total mess of the whole thing. Every time I see a small child I wonder what the world will be like for them as they grow up. I grew up when rationing was still the norm for people. To actually see a government planning to bring in emergency supplies of food and medicines make me wonder has the country learnt anything.

 

Completely different subject here, but a large slice of German cultural history came to an end today as the last underground mine was closed at the Prosper-Haniel pit in Bottrop. An industry which once employed half a million people throughout the Ruhr and formed the identity of cities like Essen and Gelsenkirchen came to an end today as the last football sized lump of coal was presented to Frank Walter Steinmeier by 7 of the last miners. All very emotional when a piece of cultural history which defined whole populations comes to an end - but history moves on.

 

The problem is many youngsters are completely unaware of the sacrifices by millions to avoid domination by some Europeans. As the Scottish referendum showed many hoped to take control away from what they saw as an outside body controlling their everyday life. It was quite normal for British people to vote to regain control from Brussels that was increasingly moving away from the original Common Market concept.

Every Brexiteer I have met voted that way to improve their country, I firmly believe Brexit will achieve that once the nonsense is worked through.

 

What these teenagers are unaware of are the rights that have been taken away from them by our membership of the EU.

I would be interested to know what rights they think are going to be taken away from them too.

Oh dear I am getting involved in this.....

 

Er.....what rights have been taken away by the EU ?

 

Speaking to them, they are far from happy that they will no longer have the right to live, work, study or travel throughout Europe. It may be possible in time to allow them to do just that, but currently they have a right to do so. They do not see that a country that wishes to isolate itself from cooperation with other nations is much of a good idea to put it into their words. What makes the UK think it is so special, one of them asked me, that they believe they can manage on security, communications, development of life preserving medical developments, and ignore the rest of the nations. We all rely on each other these days, so to think we don't seems crazy is their perspective on it. Although it is far more complicated than that, I have to agree with them.

 

Do you really expect a teenager who lives his life today is thinking about Europe of 70 years ago. It is only us old fogeys who even remember much about the days after the conflicts ended. No, we have moved on into another century, and unless you are of a certain age such things are totally irrelevant. Why live in the past? All of us should take what is on offer today with all its imperfections, and try to improve life for everyone, not just the few, and certainly not hand on a country riven by division which it currently is.

 

There is no reason once the UK leaves the EU we cannot have friendly and effective cooperation across many areas including an exchange policy involving work experience. Most countries in the world survive extremely well without their sovereignty being taken away. Far from being isolated the UK will open itself up to a greater degree than at present. The EU clearly do not want the UK to leave but they just need to respect the views of the British people. Once they accept the reality pressure will demand they behave sensibly so that trade and welfare can be enhanced to a reasonable standard for the benefit of all.

 

Cameron's failed attempts to rectify an obvious fault in the EU's free movement policy showed the EU's intransigence and unreasonableness. Brexiteers are trying to improve on the many imperfections in the EU. To desire sovereignty is a basic right that most in the world enjoy. There is growing unease with the EU right throughout Europe, it is failing many.

 

This sounds very much like you wish to take two steps backwards so that at a later date you can take one step forward and hope that the EU will agree to give you again what you already have. There are no countries that have 100% sovereignty because they have all given away some of it every time time they sign a trade deal. Yes the country will open itself up to having strict controls on trading, which as everyone knows will see large blocks of trading nations see the weakness of the UK position, outside of the second largest block in the world, and exploit it. People who still talk about the days of Empire, yes they do exist if you look at some of the comments in certain tabloids, are not of this world. Try to explain sovereignty to a teenager, who if we live long enough will be the MPs etc in future. What they see is that their passport will change, and some of the rights that it confers will be removed.

 

One of my grandsons who will be sixteen in a couple of weeks time, has a neighbour who is sinking into the darkness of Alzheimers. He has e-mailed me to ask that instead of sending him something for himself could I please donate the same amount I might have given him to his chosen charity doing research into how to end this problem. This shows to me that that the young of today actually want to help make the world a better place, and for him he doesn't care if the research is carried out in France, Germany, the UK or anywhere else in the world, he just wants to see his neighbour and the others like him helped.
This is surely what we should all be striving for, to make the world better, to stop relatives being put in impossible situations of looking after those who are suffering from this and other complaints, and not worrying ourselves about who organises it. What is sovereignty my grandson will ask. Get real people and do the right thing is his answer, and forget all this nonsense.
As we get older we often forget the idealism of youth, but just maybe because of the complexities of many situations we use them as a means to make sure that little happens. He would ask, and I would agree, how many billions of pounds have been wasted on this futile exercise which could have been put to far more sensible use.

 

He sounds a great young chap but with the naivety of youth. Billions of pounds may be spent on Brexit but the majority of UK citizens in the referendum would argue the ultimate prize is worth it. There is often no connection between spending limits in different departments. Was he told the UK has just announced a massive increase in spending for the NHS.? The government could always borrow more for research, the Uk's borrowing level is way below many EU countries. People could also argue money spent on trident could be used for better use. It does sound as if any old chestnut will be used to attempt to frustrate Brexit if possible.

 

The trouble is that only about 30% of the population now think that there is anything to be gained from it The massive increase in spending that you have referred to on a number of occasions is actually a a standstill budget, and it doesn't address the issues at all of the huge amount that has already been taken away, or the problems of staff shortages. You say that the government could always borrow more for research,which is quite funny coming from someone opposed to government borrowing, but it is a political decision that they have not wanted to take. They contributed a portion of the European Medicines Agency costs, but gained far more by the revenue it created in London. Where has this got us today? Later treatment with new drugs, lost revenue to the taxman, and nothing as yet as a replacement, just vague talks about trying to put something in place.
Yes my grandson maybe not looking at all the problems, but as I said above far better to want to try and actively improve things, rather than find reasons not to do so.