Would you step in ?

[Tel (they/them)]

They were still doing a large proportion of it when I was working in there. Some of it made sense in terms of being able to have oversight of your own budgets and departmental needs. But it was a convoluted system that was tied into specific contracts and was very rigid in terms of competition. Even basic things like buying office chairs had to be done through the NHS procurement system, so you'd end up paying £200 for a chair that you could just nip down the road and get for £59 at office supplies.

Most of it was probably intended to go through OJEU before Brexit shat on that. I can’t see that being a bad thing if that all falls apart. I don’t know enough about the NHS to make a case against it’s entire framework but from what I can see it looks bound to fail, not necessarily as a direct result of funding but as a result of a vicious circle which is hindered by funding.

 

[PINKIE]

Sounds like there may have been some brown envelopes involved here!...

Think it was more to do with the NHS wanting to have oversight over how their budgets were being spent and on what suppliers. So rather than me saying 'look I can procure this service/equipment for a better price elsewhere' they wanted to ensure that everybody was buying stuff in the same way, because inevitably if you let one person do their own thing, they might do it well, but you'd have 10 others who'd make a cock up of it and waste money.

A suppose the flip side of this is that you don't always get best value for money when you're tied into big long term contracts, but that was the price to pay for consistency and accountability.

 

[remembercolinlee]

The problem with race stats is that they are not as black and white as they are presented (see what I did there?)

Many of the young and not so young black men (mainly) involved as perpetrators are mixed race, in many cases this involves having a white parent.
So blaming "black culture" (for the want of a better term) is simplistic and inaccurate.

In my opinion the issue is much more complicated. Although people mock the "need more youth clubs" type of argument there is a lot of truth that youth services keep kids off the streets and away from gangs and (just as importantly) get kids from different areas to mix socially which lessens the inter school and inter postcode conflicts.

The is also an issue that the previous generation of problem kids have grown up to be scum adults who are bringing up disturbed and violent children.

Unless these kids are caught and changed the problem will simply get worse.

Where I work deal with kids who have a range of problems including scummy parents. We have to physically search some kids ... out of the 5 kids we have had to search 2 were "black" and one of those have a white parent. (all are primary aged) due the threats of weapons being brought in...personally I find that worrying and depressing in equal measure.

I have no issue with punishing those who use violence but that alone will not solve the issue...youth services, more support for young people including those who are law abiding and well behaved (they usually get forgotten about instead of rewarded) is equally important imho.

 

[Libby]

Most of it was probably intended to go through OJEU before Brexit shat on that. I can’t see that being a bad thing if that all falls apart. I don’t know enough about the NHS to make a case against it’s entire framework but from what I can see it looks bound to fail, not necessarily as a direct result of funding but as a result of a vicious circle which is hindered by funding.

 

[PINKIE]

Most of it was probably intended to go through OJEU before Brexit shat on that. I can’t see that being a bad thing if that all falls apart. I don’t know enough about the NHS to make a case against it’s entire framework but from what I can see it looks bound to fail, not necessarily as a direct result of funding but as a result of a vicious circle which is hindered by funding.

The NHS are obsessed with transparency and accountability. And rightly so, it is probably the one public body that gets the most scrutiny in the national eye. Not sure about how their procurement procedures are shaping up now, but the old system I used to use was robust enough, but didn't really offer great value and like I said, had zero competition. It was all tied into pre existing contracts that had been negotiated and signed off way up the line, so there was very little departmental input into that.

 

[PINKIE]

those who are law abiding and well behaved (they usually get forgotten about instead of rewarded) is equally important imho.

This

Young people want to be recognised and make their mark on the world, so that they are taken seriously. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to make a name for yourself and get peer recognition by doing something bad than it is to get recognition for doing something good.

This is why the arts, sports, culture and community projects are absolutely vital for young people, to have a vehicle to express themselves and use their creative and social talents. And the recognition for this stuff needs to conveyed to them too.

 

[thefanwithnoname]

This

Young people want to be recognised and make their mark on the world, so that they are taken seriously. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to make a name for yourself and get peer recognition by doing something bad than it is to get recognition for doing something good.

This is why the arts, sports, culture and community projects are absolutely vital for young people, to have a vehicle to express themselves and use their creative and social talents. And the recognition for this stuff needs to conveyed to them too.

I worked closely with youth services and was responsible for setting up projects which (still run) independent of youth services much to their annoyance

I honestly believe that they have created as many problems as helped because ultimatley became less about the youth and lore about their own jobs and justifying their huge budgets which were being wasted

I have seen 250000 questionaires sent out, 9 come back and 6 documents in the form of action plans set up to take the service further. 9 responses

This may upset some but the same 2 lesbian women and the gay worker with piercings and green hair have been on document covers submitted to govt doe the last 20 years from youth services to youth based regeneration projects (eg srb 5)

These three individuals are very good at gaining employment but the projects that employ them have intimately failed time and time again

Yet it's only at the end of the 1, 2 or 3 year lifespan that the final report admits it's failings. During the quarterly monitoring returns everything is brilliant


Now apply that to disability projects, mental health projects etc

I could have and did speak.about why surestart wouldfail, The hmpi would fail and why srbs would fail but it was never listened to until they failed

My job meant i made few friends in work but the projects I did still run.

 

[PINKIE]

I worked closely with youth services and was responsible for setting up projects which (still run) independent of youth services much to their annoyance

I honestly believe that they have created as many problems as helped because ultimatley became less about the youth and lore about their own jobs and justifying their huge budgets which were being wasted

I have seen 250000 questionaires sent out, 9 come back and 6 documents in the form of action plans set up to take the service further. 9 responses

This may upset some but the same 2 lesbian women and the gay worker with piercings and green hair have been on document covers submitted to govt doe the last 20 years from youth services to youth based regeneration projects (eg srb 5)

These three individuals are very good at gaining employment but the projects that employ them have intimately failed time and time again

Yet it's only at the end of the 1, 2 or 3 year lifespan that the final report admits it's failings. During the quarterly monitoring returns everything is brilliant


Now apply that to disability projects, mental health projects etc

I could have and did speak.about why surestart wouldfail, The hmpi would fail and why srbs would fail but it was never listened to until they failed

My job meant i made few friends in work but the projects I did still run.

Just on that point about Surestart. I always thought that was a brilliant scheme. My impression was that it failed because the Govt pulled the plug on its funding ?

 

[remembercolinlee]

Just on that point about Surestart. I always thought that was a brilliant scheme. My impression was that it failed because the Govt pulled the plug on its funding ?

every scheme has it's faults but Surestart was a success and ihould havd continued in my opinion and considering how much I detest Blair and his Governments that is a hard thing to say!

 

[thefanwithnoname]

Just on that point about Surestart. I always thought that was a brilliant scheme. My impression was that it failed because the Govt pulled the plug on its funding ?

Govt did pull the plug in the end, but tbf with little choice

Basically these schemes sound great on paper and tbf they do greatly help a handful of people if not more

The problem is they are ill thought out, usually a ministers pet project and run into huge debts and financial difficulty

So to be brief. You have a single mum with a couple of kids. She benefits from surestart as it helps her and her kids but she isn't paying as she has no income. So now you have a building to run, staff to employ and are chasing short term funding for projects. Which the givt has to heavily subsidise. Which is done by diverting money from elsewhere

Once esf type funding comes to an end then the subsidy gets bigger and quite frankly (speaking of a local one in stoke) 10 mums from a population of 250k people are not a priority when the local.pct has messed up the hospital funds etc

On paper it's all good in reality these things are never ending money pits

Same with community centres, youth centres etc.

It's always sad to try and book something in these places for the commjjity to be told No. Because agencies renting the space is what pays the bills and effectively drives the community out


That's a very shorthand answer believe it or not. I could go on and give you examples from around the country

 

[Zanjinho]

Just on that point about Surestart. I always thought that was a brilliant scheme. My impression was that it failed because the Govt pulled the plug on its funding ?

That's exactly why it's now struggling but there is zero sympathy from me. Fully funded by authorities for 15+ years and they never thought about raising funds and building reserves should funding be cut or end. ****ing ridiculous!

PS...I managed a small charity that used to rely on funding but I've made us 70% self sustaining rather that sitting on our arse taking the hangouts!

 

[thefanwithnoname]

every scheme has it's faults but Surestart was a success and ihould havd continued in my opinion and considering how much I detest Blair and his Governments that is a hard thing to say!

It couldn't have mate. It was always destined to fail.

Tbf to Blair (and moreso Gordon brown and Prescott) . A lot of the surestart and housing stuff was started by them with the right idea.

Problem was those delivering could never do so and the whole purpose in the initial thought was to give it a bottom up approach. So the community were to be the main contributers

Unfortunately the community didn't have the capacity, there was nimbyism and local councillors were horrified as it meant people saw them for what they were

 

[thefanwithnoname]

That's exactly why it's now struggling but there is zero sympathy from me. Fully funded by authorities for 15+ years and they never thought about raising funds and building reserves should funding be cut or end. ****ing ridiculous!

PS...I managed a small charity that used to rely on funding but I've made us 70% self sustaining rather that sitting on our arse taking the hangouts!

Pretty much what I wrote but straight to the point and more succinct

I always asked the question "if there is such a need for this why are you not providing this from the mainstream service?" . Erm erm this is a feasibility study. You give us money to run it for one year and if there is a need then we will find the money. Someone hives the money and one year later ...end of service

 

[PINKIE]

That's exactly why it's now struggling but there is zero sympathy from me. Fully funded by authorities for 15+ years and they never thought about raising funds and building reserves should funding be cut or end. ****ing ridiculous!

PS...I managed a small charity that used to rely on funding but I've made us 70% self sustaining rather that sitting on our arse taking the hangouts!

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. My work with the CCG was around helping charities and Social enterprises secure funding for a business manager so that they could eventually become self sufficient rather than needing endless funding.

That said, I still think some schemes need continued funding. Surestart was a big success in terms of addressing social deprivation and helping children and families to access health and social care schemes. Sometimes you have to take the long term view with these things and look at the problems and money it will save in other areas down the line, like benefits, unemployment, crime, probation, substance misuse etc. If you can nip this stuff in the bud at an early age, then it makes sense to fund it imo.

 

[Zanjinho]

Pretty much what I wrote but straight to the point and more succinct

I always asked the question "if there is such a need for this why are you not providing this from the mainstream service?" . Erm erm this is a feasibility study. You give us money to run it for one year and if there is a need then we will find the money. Someone hives the money and one year later ...end of service

Always been straight to the point mate. Why say it in a hundred words of you can use ten?

Every project requires funding and they always ask how it will be made sustainable. Very rarely is there a decent plan, it usually relies on further funding which just isn't a sustainability plan.

You'll obviously know things go around in circles too. What's being funding now won't be a priority in a couple years so the project will end (because of the inadequate sustainability plan) only for funding try m to materialise for the same types of projects 6-8 years later... and repeat!

 

[thefanwithnoname]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. My work with the CCG was around helping charities and Social enterprises secure funding for a business manager so that they could eventually become self sufficient rather than needing endless funding.

That said, I still think some schemes need continued funding. Surestart was a big success in terms of addressing social deprivation and helping children and families to access health and social care schemes. Sometimes you have to take the long term view with these things and look at the problems and money it will save in other areas down the line, like benefits, unemployment, crime, probation, substance misuse etc. If you can nip this stuff in the bud at an early age, then it makes sense to fund it imo.

Sorry mate I can't agree with you here. The biggest problem for surestart was they simply were not reaching the people they were intended for. This isn't just me saying this multiple audits revealed the same thing

In my experience with all these kind of schemes yiu simply can't have a new shiny building but not go out to the target audience to "recruit" them. Saying "we are here" isn't enough. Basically steps 123 were not taken

Surestart senior figures started to say "oh but we told the local authourity". No it's your job

 

[thefanwithnoname]

Always been straight to the point mate. Why say it in a hundred words of you can use ten?

Every project requires funding and they always ask how it will be made sustainable. Very rarely is there a decent plan, it usually relies on further funding which just isn't a sustainability plan.

You'll obviously know things go around in circles too. What's being funding now won't be a priority in a couple years so the project will end (because of the inadequate sustainability plan) only for funding try m to materialise for the same types of projects 6-8 years later... and repeat!

Yep and it will be the same people with a new title delivering the same thing

It always got me how in stoke all the regeneration professionals were ex city challenge from Liverpool etc. Implementing the same non working schemes

I kid you not there were some houses earmarked for demolition. Community leaders now turned councillor on "save our homes" tickets managed to stop the demolition. A great victory. Up to £30k per home spent to renovate and paint. 2 years later houses sold for £12.5k

Few years later all demolished anyway

As you say rinse and repeat with housing market renewal.pathfinder initiative

Although that wasted money on getting in consultants and then the banks ensured it didn't go too far by messing up the country

 

[Commachio]

How many pages? ****ed if im reading all that lot. Has none of you ****s been to work today?

 

[Zanjinho]

Sorry mate I can't agree with you here. The biggest problem for surestart was they simply were not reaching the people they were intended for. This isn't just me saying this multiple audits revealed the same thing

In my experience with all these kind of schemes yiu simply can't have a new shiny building but not go out to the target audience to "recruit" them. Saying "we are here" isn't enough. Basically steps 123 were not taken

Surestart senior figures started to say "oh but we told the local authourity". No it's your job

Once our local Surestart got their shiny new building they more or less disappeared. Still attended community events but that was it. They used to use various venues prior to getting the building reached which a much wider audience

 

[thefanwithnoname]

How many pages? ****ed if im reading all that lot. Has none of you ****s been to work today?

My feet etc

Where you been?

This has been a very interesting conversation with the various participants