Just wondering, if Frankel had come over from Australia, what would we be saying about him after each of his races as a 3yo.
2000 Guineas - "Wow. What was that jockey thinking. He was lucky" SJP - "Hmm. Might not be as good as we thought" Sussex - "Reckon he might be a good un" (with apologies to a certain Aussie commentator)
A lot of this is about connections and how they go about their business. One of the reasons I believe Frankel is so popular is not only his mesmerising performances on the track, but also the fact that he is trained by Sir Henry and owned by Prince Khaled Abdullah, 2 of the most respected figures in racing for many a year. Add to that the fact that the horse looks like staying in training as a four year old and many perceive this as a great thing for racing (me too btw). Now take So You Think, bought for big bugks by the Coolemoor boys to try and introduce a new breeding line and basically as a financial investment. Add in the usual spin and hyperbole generated by Ballydoyle and you end up with a distinctly unsavoury taste in the mouth. Ultimately it is very unfair on So You Think, who is a very good race horse, that he is constantly pilloried due to his connections. But in this game you sow what you reap and I guess there is a lot of "Schadenfreude" at the fact that both Canford Cliffs and SYT are both left standing in the mighty shadow of Frankel this season.
"Modest looking field" "beating horses he beat in first race" "Wow he slaughtered Canford Cliffs" - followed by "mmm was Canford Cliffs 100%" I would love the pair to meet at Ascot, that would set the meeting alight. SYT has an issue for me, and its not his connections, its the fact that he has come with massive hype and he hasn't really put in that world class performance as of yet. He lost to Rewilding and beat Snow Fairy/Workforce over insufficient trips (and not by far) and therefore he needs to perform the big one either in the Arc or the Breeders Cup (unless he does meet Frankel at Ascot). Both came with hype and only one so far has proven that the hype was right (personally I can see both proving the hype was right)
Nass there's not a chance SYT being risked against Frankel. Not a hope in hell. I doubt they'll even take the Arc on now to be honest. He'll line up in the easiest challenge left which is the English Champion Stakes. They won't risk his stud value anymore. Regarding the Arc and to play devil's advocate it's quite conceivable that Snow Fairy would have won over a mile and a half last night??! I think if Frankel came from Down Under we'd be saying the same things about him, why wouldn't we?
Cyc's view (which I greatly respect) is that SYT is more likely better over further than 10F these days but he needs to be ridden to get the trip. He has great acceleration but this is often used too early in his races. I would love to see him go for the Arc, I can see him scything through the field in the final furlong just like Sea The Stars, Zarkava or even Dancing Brave. Even if he wins the English Champion stakes over 10F, what opposition is he likely to face beyond the Cecil pair? Hadly going to set his name in stone. But if they have the balls to go to Longchamp he COULD take the Arc by storm. COULD.
I think we'd being saying exactly the same about Frankel wherever he came from. Agree with beef that SYT will not be risked against anything with a good chance of beating him - his purchase by Coolmore and the hype which has surrounded him just about sums up everything which is wrong about flat racing. The romance disappeared some time ago.
I don't think we would because Frankel has yet to be beaten. We wouldn't be saying the same about Black Caviar either. Same went with Zarkava. Those who are unbeaten are held in massive regard by most, hence why many see Frankel as superior to See The Stars.
" Was that like Hawkwing's Lockinge- and did he catch a lot of ordinary three year olds on the back foot?" " That wasn't so impressive, even though his jockey rode a bad race!" " Much better. Won decisively, but I'll defer to greatness at the end of the season." Frankelly top notch! Yet Sea The Stars will always be the more complete racehorse for me.
That's an extremely interesting, psychological question Ron. It hints that there may be a fair degree of antipathy for some who are not home grown. If a horse such as Frankel can have unfair criticism levelled against him by the "locals," then it's possible that any outsider is going to come in a for greater share of heat. But thankfully, those who are more a slave to their emotions than their reason, are few and far between. I think had the great horse come from Australia, he'd be as much admired as he is today, by the average racing fan. How can any genuine supporter of the Sport of Kings, not be impressed by his amazing demolition of the 2000 Guineas field?
Not a snowball's chance in hell that SYT will take on Frankel in the QEII. Everything Coolmore do is with stud value in mind and for another of their horses to be beaten by the same horse would be too much to take.
I would like to think that we are sporting and we would recognise a great talent no matter where it came from. When we were getting stuffed by the Aussies in the Ashes for years, we were able to recognise that Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath were two fantastic bowlers and the likes of the Waugh brothers and Ricky Ponting were fantastic batsmen. We did not like it because they were the old enemy but we (begrudgingly) acknowledged them. If anybody has a horse that they think can give Frankel a race, ship them over because he has dispatched all-comers so far. In the fairly unlikely event that he is defeated in the QEII, we know that Sir Henry Cecil and Khalid Abdullah will accept that they were beaten by a better horse on the day.
I don't think it makes a lot of difference where he comes from. Frankel has done things that no other horse has done before. He has won by wide margins in fast times, from the front, from behind and so on. He also has another quality which is that he is immensely exciting to watch. This is what makes him so popular. Though i will feeely admit that the popularity of his connections also helps.
As someone has said on the Racing Post article on this subject it it likely that Coolmore have announced they are considering the QEII in order to make people (read: potential mare owners) think that he has the speed to consider dropping back to a mile. Breeders' are, on the whole, still quite wary of true middle-distance horses.
Cracking thread Ron I think a lot of it is to do with a general dislike of Coolmore - Godolphin is the same. They're seen as huge behemoths who hoover up all the talent out there and then select the races for breeding purposes and not for sport. I prefer to separate the breeding operations from the actual racing side but can understand why lots of people don't. It's a bit like disliking manchester City or Chelsea really. Secondly, as someone said, Henry cecil is well loved and this year got a knighthood so that has added to the stadust. I think the clamour over Frankel would have been a little less had he been trained by someone who was not so universally popular. Thirdly, I think most racing fans are a fair minded lot and enjoy watching horses come here from around the world - the excitement generated by the Australian and American sprinters at Ascot and the admiration for Pour Moi after his stunning Derby victory would seem to bear this out. I know the latter was representing Coolmore but I suspect that M Fabre is probably more popular with the cognescenti than Aidan o Brien. So, in answer to your question Ron, I don't think people's views about Frankel would be any different if Henry Cecil had discovered him in Madagascar, Australia or Outer *****lia.
There's no room for parochialism amongst gamblers, you go skint if you give in to prejudice.. It's not So You think's Aussie roots that cause people to doubt him. That has more to do with the fact that a horse billed as a middle distance superstar won a couple of gimmes in Ireland but was then defeated at long odds-on the first time he appeared on the really big stage in Europe. Since then he's been winning people round, but punters, if not fans of the sport, tend to have aquired sceptical natures. Frankel has also had trouble convincing the doubters, even after demolishing the Guineas field in a manner as imperious as any Classic victory since Shergar's Derby. Then came Ascot, and after Tom Queally hit the afterburners 3f out and gave backers a hairy last 100 yards, there were plenty of people qeueing up to cast doubt over Henry Cecil's stable star. I'm beginning to believe So You Think may be very good indeed, though probably not as good as Sea The Stars. I'm absolutely convinced Frankel is the very best miler of all time. I'd love to see them take each other on, over 1m or 1m2f, but not in the middle October. Flat Racing in England then is usually a washout.
