Off Topic UK / EU Future

Perhaps we should resolve this thread once and for all, or are you suggesting SH has an advantage?

https://www.historychannel.com.au/this-day-in-history/hot-air-balloon-duel/

 

I am surprised you would waste your money on air travel. Your postings suggest that you can walk on water

 

It takes too long, I've only got a week.

 

Serious question on the second referendum. Would people be prepared to risk a no deal and all we are being told it could entail on the off chance we might be able stay in if the result was the other way round this time?

Personally I'd rather grab a deal and hope it is bearable. A second referendum and the associated nastiness it will generate fills me with dread.

 

Today 60 world leaders have gathered in Paris to remember those who died in the wars. The message was all about countries living in hope, not fear, understanding that there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism, and looking forward to bringing about a better world for the young no matter where they live. This message has to be about finding ways through the problems that exist, not feeling that others should bend to what you want all the time. To see Trump, Putin, Merkel, and Macron sitting together gives just a little hope that things can get better as this is where the power lies currently.

 

I agree that a second referendum could be divisive Dan, and I am also worried about that. However, what about the alternative ? The thought that one half of Britain's population (mostly the older ones) can forcibly impose a judgement upon the other half whereby citizens rights are restricted is also conducive to civil disturbance. At the moment you are a citizen of the EU. and that is about to be forcibly taken away by the 'other half' of Britain's population - against your will, and with no sign of remorse on their side. I fear for the consequences of a hard Brexit, and the civil disturbances which could occur in that scenario. The TUC are moving towards the idea of a general strike, and that may be only the beginning. For me a second referendum is the lesser of 2 evils, in that respect. Whatever happens, Britain's prestige in the World has nosedived as a result of all this - a second referendum, and a vote to remain, could be seen as a loss of face in some quarters, but that would pass.

 

I think that you have to evaluate what are the chances of staying in to start with, and also what will be the reaction of the population if they believe they are worse off as the result of a deal. The mood from the EU is that they have tried to help May so far, that could be changing, and that more time would be found if there were a chance of a change of mind. The mood of the population is maybe different to that in more normal times. This time there cannot be a satisfactory outcome that will please the majority, if there is one. Riots in the streets that get mentioned seems extreme for the UK, although the poll tax brought the country close to them. It must depend to some extent on how many jobs are lost in leave voting areas. There could be a very hostile reaction if they find that promises of glorious days ahead will not be delivered.

 

I don't disagree with any of that. However, on the point about civil unrest, h would add that if there is a second referendum and it overturns the first the anger could be uncontainable.

 

There seems to be the chance of civil unrest in one form or another no matter what happens. We have the strangest situation I can ever remember of two opposite sides of an argument totally opposed to something for completely different reasons. This suggests to me that there is something deeply flawed being proposed and the only way out of it is to ask the people again. The government seem to want to avoid MPs having too much of a say. So much for returning democracy to the country. I see no real way forward unless you do ask the people how to unlock the current impasse.

 

Time really has caught up with the UK. Has the realization not yet dawned that our political system is in meltdown ? More or less every statement being made by a Tory MP, or by the PM herself is being rubbished by another Tory, and Corbyn appears to be against his whole party - in fact his statements on a second referendum not being possible are being contradicted by no less than his shadow foreign secretary. Our MPs appear to be giving statements right left and centre without any regard for their official party line - although there are none as far as I can see. So, the whole of Parliament is in a state of anarchy - if it were in the time of Macchiavelli, they would all be walking around with concealed daggers under their cloaks. In any normal situation all the remain votes would now go to the Lib Dems - because they are the only ones with a consistent Brexit policy. But of course that will not happen because of our bent voting system which ensures that we are stuck with a choice between 2 parties which are engaged in civil war within their own ranks. So we are being held hostage by a small band of hard Brexit desparadoes (40 MPs), and by a bunch of religious nutters in Belfast.

I have seen elsewhere that Britain may, one day in the future, apply to join a reformed EU. It could well happen, but there is not yet the recognition that Britain also needs to reform before such an event is possible. In such an overcentralized country as Britain is, with such a bent voting system it is not inconceivable that another party could also claim a majority based on 37% of the vote, and, if that one party also has a referendum on its manifesto, then we are back to square one. The EU. will only want Britain back if we are a stable and contributing partner. If this whole thing can metamorphose into real questions being asked as to whether our archaic political system is really suited for the 21st Century then it may have been worthwhile.

 

The LibDems failed to attract support for their pro Brexit message because the public were not convinced by their message. Pro Brexit parties gained over 80% of the votes at the last GE.
Once the UK leaves the dreadful EU it will not want to be dominated by the Eurocrats again.

 

Time has moved on. Corbyn who might be the voice of the Labour party is out of step with his MPs and party members, so you cannot claim them to support your position. Cologne is right to say that it is a small group in the Tory party who want Brexit at any price, hence the deadlock.

 

The ERG group represents the majority of Tory voters. They are simply asking May to stick to her previous minimum demands.

 

We cannot talk about either the Tories or Labour as being either pro or anti Brexit SH. At the most they are going through the motions of honouring the referendum result, which is a different thing. Corbyn has said that they cannot stop Brexit, Starmer has said the opposite - as has been noted, in the event of a no deal Brexit, all options are still on the table for Labour, including a second referendum. Corbyn is signed up for this course of action, whatever he may have said to a German newspaper. As for the Tories they are degenerating into warring factions - how can you be in a party and call for open mutiny against your leader in the way Bojo and Gove have done ? Either they support TMs efforts to get a deal, or they should sod off to Ukip or some other far right party where they belong.

 

How do you know that? It seems that everyday lifelong Tory voters are saying they will never vote for them again. The party might be tearing itself apart, but there seems to be a growing feeling from many that an internal party fight should not take the country down with it.

 

The Tories were leading by an incredible 6 points recently in the polls so obviously their supporters were sticking by them. What is clear everyday Tories do not like TM’s Chequers deal, they prefer a clean break.

 

The Brexiters go on and on about the democratic choice of the people and how we just can never revisit a decision once made which is clearly laughable.. And yet the same rag tag collection of racists, nationalists, and just the plainly self interested... Are all now complaining about the PM our democratically elected leader who even asked the country again to rubber stamp her government... And what she is doing.
The hypocrisy and illogicallity of it jumps out at every other sensible person...
Are these people really so blind??.. Or is it just plain stupidity?

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Shame Cameron didn't think to put the national interest first before we got into this sorry, divisive, mess.

 

What the Tories were elected on was the same stance the PM took during her Mansion House speech, this is also the ERG's clear position.