I hear the Guardian is shutting down its Env and science section? It's form for the Guardian to promote spurious Environmentalist claims tbh I am totally for conservation of species. definitely for animal reserves. I am also for sea creatures and fish having some protection, because they don't. Anyone who has kept Oscars, know this, these fish have actual personalities, and throw fits like children Yet they have 0 protection China has decimated sea horse populations for example. These creatures are extremely difficult to breed in captivity Sea world and its Orcas are a disgrace. Many animals that are in Zoos should not be in them. Polar Bears, bears, lions tigers elephants ect, it's depressing to look at them. Wanton destruction of habitats for Condos, hocus pocus medicines, and other reasons is extremely counter productive. Tired of the partisan ****e, no nuance, no willingness to actually discuss the facts, as evidenced by this thread, and knowing what you are talking about, and disagreeing with others, seems to offend them.
Zoos are a necessary evil IMO. Not nice for the poor buggers in there, but they do raise awareness etc. How many people would give a **** about killer whales, dolphins and so on, without seeing them in a zoo as a youngster. Plus, many zoos do spend a hell of alot of money on research, rescue and rehabilitation. There are alot of good people who work in these places who genuinely care about the animals, wether in there care or in the wild
So you argue that it is OK to keep an orca or dolphin, who are more intelligent than many on these boards, in captivity in the hope kids will be interested in them later on? Would you argue that would be OK for a human?
I've head the "they get treated well" argument so many times. They suffer in captivity and need more care because they are in captivity. Orcas and Dolphins have hunting grounds 100s of KMs distance, and they are kept in pools, and forced to entertain like circus animals
I'm not sure Ihow I really feel about these things tbh, anymore Not trying to be contrary or anything but as I've grown up and learnt stuff (see the twin lions example earlier) I find it hard to be genuinely complimentary of zoos, animal rights folk etc Again a comedian said this but calling a gorilla a name is in the head of a woman wearing safari shorts. By teaching said gorilla to sign we forget that all it wants is to leave and get back to the wild. Yet isn't allowed so dies sad in captivity whilst said woman gets award for understanding primates or something Wtf did she understand? The thing was basically a slave to her needs
I think the positives outweigh the negatives, yes, absolutely. The standards set out in AZA regarding animal welfare and research are worth a read. I’m not talking about some back street zoo where tigers are drugged and chained for goofy tourists to stroke btw. They should be closed down and the owners prosecuted. Not sure about your human analogy either. Please elaborate
Zoos are cruel for certain animals. They should be in animal reserves, not zoos. A Lion in a few hundred meters pen, or a bear, or an elephant, is cruel by any measure. Gorillas in Zoos, can there be a more depressing sight? A majestic animal trapped in a cage. You'd think we'd moved beyond such cruelty Some species with extremely low numbers that CAN be bread in captivity, I see a point to that. Or an animal unfit to be returned to the wild because of health.. there are exceptions.
Humans are ranging creatures, we hunt, forage and need other humans for social interaction. Orcas do the exact same things but over far greater distances than humans Orcas and humans are social, hunting creatures. We know locking a human up in a pen with limited social interaction damages the human, what on earth makes you think the Orca is not harmed?
Good points. Animal wellfare has come on massively in the last twenty years. Many of the older animals simply can’t be released into the wild. They are so entrenched in human interaction that they would either be killed by other animals very quickly, or seek out humans and become a danger to others. I believe Seaworld stopped capturing killer whales around thirty years ago and have recently ceased the breeding programme.
I could have gone with any number of Eco minded sources, but I dont have time to see if the links are hyperbole or objective. Here is detailed orcas suffering in captivity. http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160310-why-killer-whales-should-not-be-kept-in-captivity
Where have I said the orca would not be harmed? You misunderstand my point. I feel for captive animals, especially naturally social predators. But I stand by the fact that reputable zoos do more good work than bad
There have been several cases of Orcas self harming or attacking humans, this is because the Orcas are suffering mental issues. also, Orca Calf Dies at SeaWorld: Why Killer Whales Get Sick in Captivity https://www.livescience.com/59965-why-killer-whales-die-in-captivity.html "I think pneumonia is a fairly common cause of death because they are living in a constant state of low-level stress," Naomi Rose, a marine mammal scientist at the advocacy organization Animal Welfare Institute in Washington, D.C., told Live Science.
Don't get me wrong, although I was flippant in op (purposefully) I'm all about animal welfare and conservation in real life. What I have found, as I get older, is that all isn't what it seems. From the suffragettes bring labelled as terrorist and holding back women's rights as a result to other figureheads that were more arsehole than hero, I'm having to rethink my views and stances
Worth reading, my opinions, not really worth anything, so those that do know and explain these creatures to us, give us the info to see why its cruel to keep them in captivity. Note it refers to Elephants and primates, the other two I mentioned that it is cruel to cage up in Zoos all over the world, in their hundreds or thousands ________________________________________________________________________________ "Killer whales are notable for their complex societies. Only elephants and higher primates live in comparably complex social structures.[80] Due to orcas' complex social bonds, many marine experts have concerns about how humane it is to keep them in captivity.[145] Resident killer whales in the eastern North Pacific live in particularly complex and stable social groups. Unlike any other known mammal social structure, resident whales live with their mothers for their entire lives. These family groups are based on matrilines consisting of the eldest female (matriarch) and her sons and daughters, and the descendants of her daughters, etc. The average size of a matriline is 5.5 animals.[146] Because females can reach age 90, as many as four generations travel together. These matrilineal groups are highly stable. Individuals separate for only a few hours at a time, to mate or forage. With one exception, a killer whale named Luna, no permanent separation of an individual from a resident matriline has been recorded.[146] please log in to view this image Killer whales, like this one near Alaska, commonly breach, often lifting their entire bodies out of the water. Closely related matrilines form loose aggregations called pods, usually consisting of one to four matrilines. Unlike matrilines, pods may separate for weeks or months at a time.[146] DNA testing indicates resident males nearly always mate with females from other pods.[147] Clans, the next level of resident social structure, are composed of pods with similar dialects, and common but older maternal heritage. Clan ranges overlap, mingling pods from different clans.[146] The final association layer, perhaps more arbitrarily defined than the familial groupings, is called the community, and is defined as a set of clans that regularly commingle. Clans within a community do not share vocal patterns. Transient pods are smaller than resident pods, typically consisting of an adult female and one or two of her offspring. Males typically maintain stronger relationships with their mothers than other females. These bonds can extend well into adulthood. Unlike residents, extended or permanent separation of transient offspring from natal matrilines is common, with juveniles and adults of both sexes participating. Some males become "rovers" and do not form long-term associations, occasionally joining groups that contain reproductive females.[148] As in resident clans, transient community members share an acoustic repertoire, although regional differences in vocalizations have been noted.[149]"
When you understand these creatures, there is no way you can justify keeping healthy Orcas in captivity under constant stress and forcing them to be clowns for the public
Ok. In my opinion, it can be justifiable to keep some animals in captivity to raise awareness of there plight in the wild.
but I do agree with you, in that there are cases where specific animals are better off. Pandas for example, I mean a Zoo is not great, but they were attempting to stave off extinction. I get that.
Agreed. Some animals are alot more suited to captive environments. Apex predators used to hunting, living in groups and covering large distances, not so much. Chilled to **** Panda, they can dig it
