Off Topic UK / EU Future

[yorkshirehornet]

Yorkie not against your position and if there is a second ref I will vote to stay. But these type of lists are total rubbish.

The truth is that the EU has accumulated a fund which the UK is a major contributor. It hasn't found more money.

Then it wasted some of that money. For example the port of Gijon which has almost no trade, destroyed jobs, and much of the money vanished. It destroyed the mining inustry but the promised replacement jobs never turned up. And you could make a list just as long as your list above for such failures.

Then there's the overheads of EU administration.

The point is the kitty is now smaller.

Then they fund some good things, most of which could and would have been done anyway.

As I say pro EU but I am a staunch advocate against promotional falsity.

Of course there are projects that have involved several countries, including the space program, GPS and Airbus. And it has made movement and trade easier for most.

And it has offered a fairer legal system and courts that have stopped several injusticies.

And it does encourage and facilitate talk and not aggression.

Don't disagree with your points.... But disagree that this list is rubbish.

Much of the Brexit campaign was rhetoric based on false promises and ideals. The realities of life are very different as we all know.

i agree we paid into all of this.... There are areas i question e.g . the bureaucracy, waste and aspects of agricultural and fisheries policies.

However the UK govt itself destroyed the mining and much of our raw materials manufacture ( something Germany chose not to do).

There are so many areas that really concern me post Brexit.
Education
Research
all aspects of the economy
Healthcare
Environment

etc etc

On virtually every count i think we are better in than out......

Good to debate..... as opposed to swop rhetoric

 

[colognehornet]

Don't disagree with your points.... But disagree that this list is rubbish.

Much of the Brexit campaign was rhetoric based on false promises and ideals. The realities of life are very different as we all know.

i agree we paid into all of this.... There are areas i question e.g . the bureaucracy, waste and aspects of agricultural and fisheries policies.

However the UK govt itself destroyed the mining and much of our raw materials manufacture ( something Germany chose not to do).

There are so many areas that really concern me post Brexit.
Education
Research
all aspects of the economy
Healthcare
Environment

etc etc

On virtually every count i think we are better in than out......

Good to debate..... as opposed to swop rhetoric

I agree with much of this Yorkie. Only one point I would modify. The last underground pit in Germany has just been closed and so a whole era of mining in the Ruhr has now ended. The pits were closed over a much longer time span than in the UK. but they have still closed. So towns like Gelsenkirchen and Essen have had pretty much the same problems of transition as towns like Barnsley - just over a longer time scale and with more planning and reinvestment. Nonetheless they are still not places you would choose to live. Solingen is also no longer the German equivalent of Sheffield steel, and the textile industries have also long gone. The area where I live was once a textile area (together with zinc and cadmium mining) - the Engels family (Friedrich Engels and co.) lived in Engelskirchen and his father wanted him to take over the textile works here rather than move to Manchester. In fact the whole area is full of industrial architecture which has long gone. There is still open cast lignite mining between Cologne and Aachen (apparently the largest whole in the ground in Europe) which is, thankfully, also living on borrowed time. So Germany did deindustrialize, just like the UK. The main difference is that there was reinvestment and, it was done over a longer period. Also Germany chose to move onto high tech industries rather than service based industries and finances like the UK. However - the car industry is still strong, and still able to dominate the political agenda here Also the weapons industry is also thriving here, so there is a lot for us Greens to do ! The main hypocrisy is that Angie likes to play the role of environmental pioneer etc. while Germany is the only country in the EU. with rising Co2 emissions - the figures only looked good for a while because they ran down all the industry in the GDR. Unfortunately the whole thing of Brexit has changed the focus and distracted us from what is really needed which is to take Germany to task about its export surplus, and its environmental record.

 

[Tobes]

If migrants enter pretending to be tourists there is not much that can be done in any system. I think we all agree the UK border force needs to be beefed up to expel overstayers and a better system for determining a person's credentials. It is too easy to live in the UK as an illegal.

You mean like they’ve been able to do with EU migrants who can’t support themselves but haven’t bothered to, partly because May took about a quarter of border force staff out when she was at the HO.

Beefing up our borders doesn’t apply to Ireland though, as Brexiteers seem happy to leave that one wide open.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

Don't disagree with your points.... But disagree that this list is rubbish.

Much of the Brexit campaign was rhetoric based on false promises and ideals. The realities of life are very different as we all know.

i agree we paid into all of this.... There are areas i question e.g . the bureaucracy, waste and aspects of agricultural and fisheries policies.

However the UK govt itself destroyed the mining and much of our raw materials manufacture ( something Germany chose not to do).

There are so many areas that really concern me post Brexit.
Education
Research
all aspects of the economy
Healthcare
Environment

etc etc

On virtually every count i think we are better in than out......

Good to debate..... as opposed to swop rhetoric

Ditto!

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

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[oldfrenchhorn]

NEW: chief executive of Britain’s biggest car manufacturer Jaguar Land Rover launches blistering attack on Theresa May’s Brexit plans warning that “tens of thousands” of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashes out without a deal. Ralf Speth tells the PM at a car industry conference in Birmingham that "I do not even know" if any of the automative giant’s manufacturing plants in Britain, which employ 40,000 people, could continue to operate after Brexit day. He warns that the firm, which has a revenue of £26bn and is one of the country’s biggest exporters by value, would not be able to continue making cars if the motorways to and from Dover "becomes a carpark". Worryingly for May, he adds that it's cheaper to make cars in Slovakia than it currently is in Britain. “What decisions will we be forced to make, if Brexit means not merely that costs go up, but that we cannot physically build cars on time and on budget in the UK?”

 

[yorkshirehornet]

NEW: chief executive of Britain’s biggest car manufacturer Jaguar Land Rover launches blistering attack on Theresa May’s Brexit plans warning that “tens of thousands” of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashes out without a deal. Ralf Speth tells the PM at a car industry conference in Birmingham that "I do not even know" if any of the automative giant’s manufacturing plants in Britain, which employ 40,000 people, could continue to operate after Brexit day. He warns that the firm, which has a revenue of £26bn and is one of the country’s biggest exporters by value, would not be able to continue making cars if the motorways to and from Dover "becomes a carpark". Worryingly for May, he adds that it's cheaper to make cars in Slovakia than it currently is in Britain. “What decisions will we be forced to make, if Brexit means not merely that costs go up, but that we cannot physically build cars on time and on budget in the UK?”

A shocking state of affairs............

 

[Deleted.......]

A shocking state of affairs............

All drivers are fat and should walk every where - we got our country back and we are all going to be fitter as a result.....

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

All drivers are fat and should walk every where - we got our country back and we are all going to be fitter as a result.....

After 50Kms you are entitled to be smug.

Today Minford wanted a no deal, while JRM wanted a Canada type deal. No wonder that the ERG cannot agree want they do want and will not produce their 140 pages of closely argued plan for the way forward. Star Wars defence systems, and rapid response task forces to protect the Falklands seem like a great idea if that was included, but what does it have to say on Jaguar or Morgan Stanley? To think that a decreasing number still believe in these loonies.

 

[Deleted.......]

All drivers are fat and should walk every where - we got our country back and we are all going to be fitter as a result.....

After 50Kms you are entitled to be smug.

Today Minford wanted a no deal, while JRM wanted a Canada type deal. No wonder that the ERG cannot agree want they do want and will not produce their 140 pages of closely argued plan for the way forward. Star Wars defence systems, and rapid response task forces to protect the Falklands seem like a great idea if that was included, but what does it have to say on Jaguar or Morgan Stanley? To think that a decreasing number still believe in these loonies.

Maybe if all the big international banks leave the city they can be replaced by nice, shiny, more successful British ones....

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Maybe if all the big international banks leave the city they can be replaced by nice, shiny, more successful British ones....

Like Dumbell's Bank or Barings I assume.

 

[kchorn]

Stop guys. Sensible debate please.

The truth is the UK is a 70 million person market of on average quite rich people compared to the European average. Of course London and Edinburgh can create new service industries. They have been accepted worldwide as being good at doing that for centuries.

The other truth is rapid change by leaving the EU will inflict pain. No one doubts that. And companies will leave London.

But the longterm situation is impossible to predict.

But at the end of the day it is clear to anyone who is open-minded that both sides prefer a deal. And even if the EU cannot do it now due to their fear of contagion, a no deal leaves the doors wide open for a deal at a future date.

ps: All this talk of companies going to another place rather over looks that the shareholders of those companies doesn't change. If the powerful shareholders are in London (pension funds) the power and payment of dividends will still be theirs.

 

[kchorn]

And another thought. The stayers (I'm one of them) want to stay in an EU that looks like the EU of today. Is that an option?:

The European Parliament has voted to pursue unprecedented disciplinary action against Hungary over alleged breaches of the EU's core values.

Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government has been accused of attacks on the media, minorities, and the rule of law - charges which he denies.

More than two-thirds of MEPs backed the censure motion - the first such vote against a member state under EU rules.

If also approved by national leaders, Hungary could face punitive measures.

They include stripping the country of voting rights at European Union

But are not other political parties in the EU heading in the same direction as Hungry?

 

[colognehornet]

And another thought. The stayers (I'm one of them) want to stay in an EU that looks like the EU of today. Is that an option?:

The European Parliament has voted to pursue unprecedented disciplinary action against Hungary over alleged breaches of the EU's core values.

Prime Minister Viktor Orban's government has been accused of attacks on the media, minorities, and the rule of law - charges which he denies.

More than two-thirds of MEPs backed the censure motion - the first such vote against a member state under EU rules.

If also approved by national leaders, Hungary could face punitive measures.

They include stripping the country of voting rights at European Union

But are not other political parties in the EU heading in the same direction as Hungry?

Difficult one KC. In principle I agree that the EU. must have a range of possibilities to rein in states which are not complying by EU. laws. On the other hand I do not believe these are being administered on a fair basis. Where was the objection when Spain sent their para military police into Barcelona to actually stop people voting, and did so using very violent means ? Had this been an Eastern European country doing the same thing the outcry may have been a little bit louder. Actually one of the countries most often in contravention of EU. regulations is Germany - mostly for environmental reasons, but, for some reason, this does not grab the headlines. I agree that Hungary may be the tip of the iceberg here - the same thing is possible in Poland, Slovenia or Croatia. In some ways the EU. was caught cold by the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and was scared into dragging these countries into the Western fold to limit the influence of Russia - the whole thing should have been done in a much more measured way (the same thing applies to the German reunification). We were also caught cold by events in Syria - but had to relieve a dangerous bottleneck of refugees which had built up in the Balkans - so I backed Merkel on that one, and it is realistic to think that the rest of the EU. should share some of the burden on this - particularly if they are receiving bailouts from the EU. If a country thinks that the EU. exists only for the funding it can hand out then there must be a way of reminding them bluntly that this is not the case, and that obligations are also involved.

 

[superhorns]

Stop guys. Sensible debate please.

The truth is the UK is a 70 million person market of on average quite rich people compared to the European average. Of course London and Edinburgh can create new service industries. They have been accepted worldwide as being good at doing that for centuries.

The other truth is rapid change by leaving the EU will inflict pain. No one doubts that. And companies will leave London.

But the longterm situation is impossible to predict.

But at the end of the day it is clear to anyone who is open-minded that both sides prefer a deal. And even if the EU cannot do it now due to their fear of contagion, a no deal leaves the doors wide open for a deal at a future date.



ps: All this talk of companies going to another place rather over looks that the shareholders of those companies doesn't change. If the powerful shareholders are in London (pension funds) the power and payment of dividends will still be theirs.

The remoaners have repeatedly fallen for the project fear nonsense since Brexit became a reality. You really can fool some people most of the time.

The excellent Rees Mogg has proved today that the negotiations would be much better handled by him assisted by Davis and Baker rather than some timid civil servant with limited skills.

 

[superhorns]

Difficult one KC. In principle I agree that the EU. must have a range of possibilities to rein in states which are not complying by EU. laws. On the other hand I do not believe these are being administered on a fair basis. Where was the objection when Spain sent their para military police into Barcelona to actually stop people voting, and did so using very violent means ? Had this been an Eastern European country doing the same thing the outcry may have been a little bit louder. Actually one of the countries most often in contravention of EU. regulations is Germany - mostly for environmental reasons, but, for some reason, this does not grab the headlines. I agree that Hungary may be the tip of the iceberg here - the same thing is possible in Poland, Slovenia or Croatia. In some ways the EU. was caught cold by the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and was scared into dragging these countries into the Western fold to limit the influence of Russia - the whole thing should have been done in a much more measured way (the same thing applies to the German reunification). We were also caught cold by events in Syria - but had to relieve a dangerous bottleneck of refugees which had built up in the Balkans - so I backed Merkel on that one, and it is realistic to think that the rest of the EU. should share some of the burden on this - particularly if they are receiving bailouts from the EU. If a country thinks that the EU. exists only for the funding it can hand out then there must be a way of reminding them bluntly that this is not the case, and that obligations are also involved.

Merkel has certainly changed the European political scene single handedly by opening the floodgates to migrants. The exceptional support for right wing parties in many countries can be solely attributed to her selfish decision.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Stop guys. Sensible debate please.

The truth is the UK is a 70 million person market of on average quite rich people compared to the European average. Of course London and Edinburgh can create new service industries. They have been accepted worldwide as being good at doing that for centuries.

The other truth is rapid change by leaving the EU will inflict pain. No one doubts that. And companies will leave London.

But the longterm situation is impossible to predict.

But at the end of the day it is clear to anyone who is open-minded that both sides prefer a deal. And even if the EU cannot do it now due to their fear of contagion, a no deal leaves the doors wide open for a deal at a future date.

ps: All this talk of companies going to another place rather over looks that the shareholders of those companies doesn't change. If the powerful shareholders are in London (pension funds) the power and payment of dividends will still be theirs.

My comment was purely light hearted, not to be taken seriously kc.

I agree that both sides would like to strike an agreement that is the least painful for both, but would doubt that contagion is top of the agenda for the EU. Over many years the rules and regulations have been written, improved, or discarded to create what we have today, and that will continue as any organisation does to suit the prevailing conditions. However looking at the current rules they work most of the time, and they quite rightly cannot start allowing one country to pick the bits they like and ignore the bits they don't, especially when that country says it wants to leave.

What we are currently looking at is the means by which the UK leaves and what is being done to prepare for it. If we finish up with no deal there will be a different set of problems to deal with to those that will come from a deal of some sort. When you say that a deal could be done at a later date, what sort of deal are you thinking about? Something like a Canada deal that doesn't include services, or something along the lines of of reapplying for membership of the EU?

 

[colognehornet]

Merkel has certainly changed the European political scene single handedly by opening the floodgates to migrants. The exceptional support for right wing parties in many countries can be solely attributed to her selfish decision.

I'm not going down this road again SH. How would history have judged any country which had turned away refugees during World War 2 ? Merkel did what had to be done at the time and you have failed to suggest any other possible course of action which was realistic or humane.

 

[superhorns]

I'm not going down this road again SH. How would history have judged any country which had turned away refugees during World War 2 ? Merkel did what had to be done at the time and you have failed to suggest any other possible course of action which was realistic or humane.

It would have helped if she had consulted her fellow leaders not foisted the problems onto others. Her legacy will certainly be dominated by this one action, similar to Blair's Iraq dodgy dossier.

 

[kchorn]

When you say that a deal could be done at a later date, what sort of deal are you thinking about? Something like a Canada deal that doesn't include services, or something along the lines of of reapplying for membership of the EU?

The EU is continuously looking for trade deals around the world. And looking for friends to help it defend its borders. Whatever the agenda the UK is a marketplace of 65 million people who are better off than the average member of the EU. That is a fact that no one can deny. And our military power, like it or nor, for it or not, is superior to anything any EU country could offer.

As for type of deal, it could be any type of deal if both sides see benefit. We cannot predict tomorrow with any degree of accuracy, let alone in 2 or 3 years time. So the type of deal would reflect those future times. I believe looking at current arrangements has very limited benefit.

I will admit that my observations are that those who want Brexit are less clear on their objectives and are happy to promote possibilities as facts. But the stayers must appreciate that the EU will not be what it was in 2015, in 2025.