Off Topic Political Debate

You shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers!!

 

Why do you then?

 

Corbyn's stance has been supported by Nick Griffin of BMP infamy and the KU Klux Klan, nice bedfellows.

 

Which stance SH ? Corbyn is also in line with many 'thinking' people who question why every criticism of Israel is put down as Anti Semitism.

 

The stance that has led to several Labour Party MPs from openly calling him a racist and an anti-Semite.

 

That's not an answer to my question SH ? Which stance ?

 

I agree with most of that. The PLP is so far out of touch with the membership of the party it is frightening. The Tory-Lite dregs of Blairites need to get in step. They call Corbyn a racist, but they are clutching at straws. The recent supposed Black September thing was farcical. The Daily Maelstrom spread a load of slanderous slurs about JC (he really should take them to court).
The funny thing is I don’t think there is, what I call, ‘real’ racism within the Labour Party (subject to the statistical probability there will be some racists in all organisations). But the generally accepted view of anti-Semitism includes likening the state of Israel to Nazi Germany. I find this a strangely specific thing to be included in the list. A good friend of mine lost her parents in a Nazi camp. She does liken the two. She is Jewish. She hates what the state of Israel does to Palestinians and I find it hard to accept that by the generally accepted definition, she is an anti-Semite. The only other people I know who draw this parallel are also Jewish.
I don’t liken Israel to Nazi Germany mainly because I know more about Nazi Germany than I do Israel. But what I see Israel do, I can’t condone. I think many, if not most, Labour supporters have major problems with the terrorism conducted by the state of Israel. That doesn’t mean we are anti-Semites.
Without getting into a contrary back and forth, I believe that there is more Islamophobia among the Right than there is anti-Semitism from the Left. Would you agree with that?

 

I have seen that Netanyaho likened the Iranian government to that of Hitler - but that is, apparently, not racist. Other governments have been so unfavourably described, so why should Israel be immune ? In fact why is there a special code on what is seen as 'Anti Semitism' as distinct from existing laws regarding racist expression ? Do they need 'special' protection which other groups, such as Romani, do not enjoy ?

 

I agree there is more concern, I wouldn't call it islamophobia from the right.. There is not a general anti Semitism on the left just leading figures in Momentum and now the leadership of the LP.

 

You anti-Semite.

 

Honestly, sh, I really think their problem, and mine, is with the actions of the state of Israel, not Israelis themselves. I genuinely can’t see how that is anti-Semitic.
Without all the usual bollocks we get into () can you tell me honestly if you think that makes me an anti-Semite?

 

No

 

Thanks.
Actually, I think it’s a bit like (dare I say it? ) hating Germany because of the things the Nazis did. I think we can all see the difference. That definition is the bit that I think JC has said he won’t agree to. I don’t blame him.
It’s like saying ISIS or ISIL or whatever kill people with the abandon that the Nazis did makes me Islamophobic. It’s a stupid rule but it’s the stumbling block for Corbyn that is causing many in the PLP to try and get rid of him by any underhand means.

 

The Lib Dems are considering changing their rules in the search for any talent to replace their leader Vince who? They are apparently so bereft of any suitable candidates in the tiny rump of parliamentary MP's they feel they need an outsider. The self publicist Gina Miller is being touted as an option. As the anti Brexit party failed to impress the voting public at the last election I'm not sure this lady will do any better.

 

The PLP has been out of touch with rank and file membership for many years Andy. Grassroots membership has always been slightly to the left of the higher echelons of the party. We cannot replace the PLP overnight and so have to get along with this - however, the majority of grassroots members are pro Corbyn, but anti Brexit. Up until now the 'second referendum' campaign has been centred around Blair - but there are signs that Momentum and Unite are also turning on this theme. Can Corbyn afford to be taking on the PLP as champion of the grassroots of the party, yet, simultaneously opposing grassroots calls for a second referendum ?

 

I think he needs to maintain control of the party as a priority. There are so many machinations from the PLP itself to undermine him and ultimately return him to the backbenches, for socialism to have any voice in the party he has to retain leadership. This may mean steering clear of the Remain campaign. Second vote possibly OK to promote. Remaining is a posioned chalice now, because just what would our position be now in Europe if we second-voted to remain? Our position in Europe is knackered now.

 

I think the rank and file LibDem voters were pro-Remain anyway, so their stance wasn’t that brave or the potential party-splitter it would be for Labour or Conservative parties. As a party who have always been very pro-education, their vote went into meltdown when they agreed to the increases in higher education direct costs for students.
Vincey came across as quite credible politician until 2011. Since, Vince has made me wince.
Don’t know anything about Gina Miller.

 

She wasn't born here and took the Government to court over Brexit - and won. She's hated for interfering in our democratic process as its none of her business - though it's OK for Murdoch, Guisella Stewart etc. She's black too but I'm sure that has no bearing 3 whatsoever on any of the abuse (including death and rape threats) she's been deluged with...

 

I agree it would be wise to avoid jumping on the 'remain' bandwagon. In this scenario theTories would cash in on the entire leave vote whereas the 'remain' vote would be spread over several parties and we know what the result of that would be. I would debate the last part of your text Andy. There is a feeling that asking to come back in would involve loss of face and image. The truth is that Britain had a perfectly democratic right to leave a voluntary club, but also has a democratic right to change it's mind, and I don't know anyone in the EU. who would dispute that. There could be a sense of 'Much ado about nothing' but that would quickly pass. The EU. would welcome the UK. back in but only under the understanding that this same process is not going to be repeated in a few years time. As I understand it we are leaving in March, and we are not leaving in March ie. we are moving into a transition period on that date - which is planned to last for another 21 months. During that time we will be 'in' in all but name - still paying, still enjoying freedom of movement and goods, but just not voting on anything. A lot can happen in that time.

 

We weren’t particularly popular though anyway, were we? We were always looking for special treatment. I think our negotiating positions within Europe are beyond repair in the short-to-medium term. It’s like an abusive, cheating partner wanting back into a relationship where the abused party believes they were stronger together, but is moderately non-plussed about getting back together. Trust has gone. And there’s nothing to say we wouldn’t be wanting out again soon, even if we second-vote to remain. Like I said, I think our position is knackered.