That's fine mate, I don't have a problem with who votes for who. If your Labour MP is good then vote for him. I vote for local MP John Redwood because he does a good job. As a party member I also have a say with other Tories on what we want. On another note, I nearly had a lunch with TM before she became a big gun. I only backed out when they wanted £50 for it! Bloody Tories!
Doesn’t really answer my confusion about what point you were making with the EU-Japan trade deal, but no matter. The EU-USA deal kept tariffs from being increased in a range of things, including EU iron and steel, and they are in discussion on a range of other things, like cars. Naturally we benefit from this as members of the EU. Of course individuals can interpret it as ‘cap in hand’ its all subjective, and I am sure that there was an element of panic, but looks like a result to me and surprisingly nimble work from the EU. If Trump is still in a bad mood next March, or after the transition period (if he’s still around, let’s hope not) the UK will have to strike a similar deal, just to keep things the same. As we will with Japan and the other 50 plus countries we have trade deals with through our membership of the EU. Of course the easiest (and most likely) way of doing this is us committing to keeping to the same terms as the EU deal and adopting any changes that the EU and the third countries agree, with no say over these rules. Can’t do that because Mogg and Johnson would say it made us a ‘vassal state’, a ‘rule taker’. Collectively, when you put all 27 countries together, the EU will take a bigger economic hit than the UK through Brexit, unless it’s a Norway like deal, as Farage and Johnson used to want. That’s because as a unit the EU is much bigger than the UK. But no individual country, even the ones facing us over the channel which will be worst hit, will take anything like as big a hit as the UK will, and because they have instant free access to a bigger market their chances of making up the shortfall are better, and in the medium term it could even boost the economy - if a widget they use to build a machine in Bratislava has been sourced from the UK, but now it costs more (likely because of bureaucracy and regulation more than tariffs) it might make it profitable to manufacture locally this boosting their own economy. Although to be fair a probable fall in £ will keep the status quo. HSBC is forecasting that sterling will fall to $1.10 in the event of a no deal, but rise to $1.45 even with a Chequers Deal.
Yes, I did acknowledge that confidence in the political system is generally low. But if you really believe that if Parliament ignored the referendum vote and did the exact opposite would earn it the respect of the 52%, you're living on a different planet to me, BD! People in this country believe in fairness and justice. If they feel they've been cheated by an arrogant elite, to keep their country in a pan-European organisation led by the arrogant elite, I do honestly believe there would be prolonged civil disobedience, possibly civil unrest. In fact, the same reaction as would have been the case had 52% of the population voted to remain in the EU and Parliament ignored it and proceeded to leave the EU.
I believe in fairness and justice, for sure. Including fairness and justice for those who are in a weaker position than me but just as deserving. Those who would be just as capable, given an equal start in life and equal opportunity within it. I can't speak for all those who profess to believe in fairness and justice. Some of those in positions of power or influence say they do, but they don't all convince. I appreciate that we both have a different version of what sort of planet we'd like to live on and what sort of country we'd like this to be. That comes out in our different points of view on some issues. We also appear to have the ability to see the same facts yet draw totally different conclusions. That, I'm happy to say, is part of the rich tapestry of life. The 17M who voted Leave are only 26% or so of the UK population. The other 74% deserve to have their needs met as well. After all, Leave voters are clearly in the minority when it comes to who actually lives in this country. I don't see that being taken into account.
Why do you assume that the 74% (which presumably includes those not eligible to vote) are all Remainers? This whole idea that, hey, it was actually the 48% that won drives me nuts! You say you accept the referendum result but you don't. We all want a fair deal with the EU. But the EU won't compromise and so managed WTO rules is the way to go. Preparation will be needed but the Project Fear merchants like Osborne all end up looking stupid. I don't see May as the person to take us into WTO unless she's heavily managed by a Brexit cabal. We'll see.
I don't assume that 74% are all Remainers - you just made that up. We don't know what their views are. All we know is what happened on Referendum day. I do accept the referendum result. Leave won 52/48. It's a matter of record. We just don't know what sort of Leave they were asking for. And until tat is answered, this will never go away. I want the best deal for the ordinary people in this country. I don't want the conversation in July 2019 to be about the crashed pound (good for those Leave "elites" who invested in the Euro or USDollar, though, eh?) and the loss of jobs, tax revenues, low wages and high imported goods prices for non-essentials (my sarcasm) such as food, energy and raw materials. So, I would like to see the government manage an exit that makes those things less likely, not more. What's so wrong with that?
Who are the arrogant elite Goldie (apart from me obviously)? How do you define them, by income/wealth, position, background, political beliefs, faith, cultural and artistic tastes, where they live, where they go on holiday? How many of them are there? I’m not denying that there is an elite, but I doubt that it is as heterogenous and certainly not as organised as you seem to be implying.
You said: "The 17M who voted Leave are only 26% or so of the UK population. The other 74% deserve to have their needs met as well." So you were distinguishing the 26% Leave from 74% left. It's a poor comparison when 74% includes Leave voters, if you go round schools and kindergartens to ask them - and it's a nonsense comparison for that reason! I don't want to be blackmailed by a Smug EU. We have a big enough economy to manage WTO rules. Our trade with the rest of the world is increasing year by year. Our trade with the EU is diminishing. Much has been made of the UK stockpiling drugs, but we learn today that the UK supplies more pharmaceutical products to the EU than we buy from them (source - Radio 4 Today program). They are playing hardball. It's not in the EU's interests for the UK to succeed with its newly gained independence. We have to stand up for ourselves and play hardball back. I believe more and more of the British public are waking up to that fact.
Tell me I have just not read this? Maybe we should also ask all the members of the EU to vote as well. There is also a long lost tribe in the Amazon jungle maybe we should give them a vote.
Sorry but to counter it’s only your opinion that anyone has been cheated by the EU You cannot take the moral high ground when the Main Brexit campaign to get that 52% was based around immigration. The cheese and wine cellars of the arrogant elite and now the Mafia all came after the vote in true nationist anglo Saxon style Also people in this country do not imo believe in fairness etc . The truth is we believe in I’m alright Jack ... agree it’s wrong but that statement is complete rubbish imo Wait until there is a shortage of for example something simple like Jacobs Cream Crackers owned by the Spanish HQ in French) if you want to see fairness and goodwill Brexit poses problems on the supply chain of raw materials from Europe to supply the manufacturing plants that make biscuits for the U.K. market Parent company Pladis looking to move full production to the superior plants of the Netherlands, France and Belgium Oh crumbs
Start with North London MP's Stan. Lady Nugent and the Islington Labour lot. They look down their noses at ordinary, working people. House of Lords - take your pick, Adonis, Heseltine, Patten etc If you become an MP or a Lord, you are elite. Whether you're arrogant too depends on how you behave. There are some decent MP's too. Frank Field is down to earth and recent attempts by Corbyn's Momentum Gestapo to unseat him are despicable.
And there is the problem of debate Now we have a lost tribe from the Amazon to consider I know it’s only a maybe that it should be considered but I see faults in this argument 1. They are lost 2. We don’t know if they are aware of us never mind the EU 3. They are from South America 4. We have no idea what language they speak Tell me I did not type this El protracteo Que bullshittio Chief of the tribe who are lost or unknown
This is where you fail like your car ownership argument. If we don't buy Jacobs cream crackers then your Spanish and French comrades will not have a job. The only reason they bought the company is because we in the UK buy the goods. Without us there won't be a great company. You need to think further than an ownership.
