For goodness sake. Is everyone on this forum made of sugar? Do you melt in the heat? This is a public football forum not the Anglican Vicar's tea Party. For once we had a bit of animated debate and disagreement - and over football for once so you cannot even blame politics. I think the worst insults used were arse and uninformed idiot - if those make you uncomfortable then you should get out more. I totally disagreed with and subsequently fell out with Tobes but at least he had passion and held to his cause. I respect him for that. Although it seems some of you only want an anodyne thought for the day or hello on the Nest this forum lets people with different views argue them. In the old days of 606 we had lots of cut and thrust with other clubs supporters - much of it heated. I would rather a dozen Tobes came here than people who cannot say what they think. Yes Cologne and I had one of our frequent disagreements too but I forgive him as he knows not what he does (joke there OFH !) Again at least Cologne has some strong views and argues them - we prod each other but know underneath we actually both enjoy it. Can I suggest that in future unless a thread gets to the stage of extreme swearing that people either let those who want to indulge in a bit of argument get on with it - or actually join in the debate in what they see as a committed fashion themselves. Yesterday would have been better if those who read the thread expressed their views - we might have seen where the balance of opinion lay. But no - we threaten to close threads and act as if anyone is being hurt. Let's grow a pair. Some of you may be pleased that I will not now be around for a couple of weeks as Julia has to go into hospital for a series of tests and scans to try to find a way to balance her heart and cancer issues so forgive me if that takes my attention. It would be nice if in my absence a few more people showed a bit of passion on here - or it is going to be a long boring summer.
TBH I couldn't even raise a sweat for the Silva issue..... as in reality I have no knowledge about his contract or the finer niceties of football legalities... and he is Gone.... I was surprised about the vehemence that jumped out of the messages on this thread over such an issue..... It led me to not want to engage in an issue where IMO antagonistic messages were traded. Yes it is summer and I would rather get out more! Incidentally though... I also share the view that the GT era was our best and i was proud of our club in those days. Today I am happy what the Pozzos have done for us... but find the merry go round of foreign players and 'head coaches' something I struggle with. On the other hand it is good to be in the Prem....
It was a slow day yesterday and a bit of debate passed the time. I am surprised that grown men are so bothered when a couple of cyber-people get animated. You are of course right. None of us are contract lawyers so we were only giving our views on what we think the outcome will be. Nobody asks other people to join in any particular thread so when someone does not like the debate or its tone they can easily just move onto another. I honestly think some people are mice not men and need to grow a pair - not aimed at anyone in particular but for goodness sake has nobody ever seen a forthright argument in a pub? If anything it is often amusing to see a couple of people getting angry. I don't mind being regarded as foolish - this is 0.000001% of importance in my life.
The GT era was great but football is not the same now. Is it as good - not in my opinion. However to me the Pozzos are possibly the best owners in the Premiership. They don't have the most money but they understand football and have raised three different clubs up to new heights in three different countries. They have probably saved my club from extinction. They have given us a promotion, a four sided ground to be proud of, and the longest spell we have ever had in the Prem. I trust their 30 odd years of football ownership judgement. If they feel that frequent changes of manager are needed then it does not bother me at all. I have no feelings one way or another for most of our players or managers nowadays. That is not down to the Pozzos but to Sky and its billions that have altered football at the highest level. I accept life as the cards are dealt - I have to - so if it takes mercenaries to manages clubs and play for them I can live with that. What I do not understand is how anyone can seriously question what the Pozzos have done for us. Criticism of them is fine and they do not do everything right but anyone who thinks they should operate a different way ought to show us the "better" model.
Leo, you should not take every criticism of the Pozzos or their model like some kind of attack. I love my partner, but i also feel free to criticize her, as she does me. I cannot compare the Pozzos to other owners in the Prem. because I have not analysed the others - particularly with smaller clubs such as Burnley and Huddersfield. You ask for another model - the hands off approach, leave a manager like SD. in place, give him economic security so that we do not have to sell, and slowly strengthen the team. We could have been a 'Burnley with money', but we will never know - and I would have certainly settled for that. There is the other aspect that what has worked in Italy and Spain over 30 years, may not necessarily work in England - at least over a longer period. Some kind of adaptation may be necessary. What makes us a club - it is partly the collective memory of legends such as Sir Luther, Mooney, Ross Jenkins and many others, which bonds us together. Where will those legends come from in the future once Deeney has gone ? We could have gone into liquidation, maybe not - it could have happened that the fans saved the club, as happened at Exeter and Portsmouth - that would have made me so proud. You say that modern football has changed with Sky and it's billions - but the game is still the same, and games are won by teams not expensive individuals. The Premiership is probably the league most effected by this - of the richest 15 clubs in Europe, half of them are from the Prem. But do they get value for money ? Clubs like Man.City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. are expected to dig deep in their pockets year in year out, with the pressure of Champions League qualification - but, excepting Liverpool this year who were the last English club in the final. Normally they go out to less rich clubs by at least the quarter final stage. Look at the continuity of Bayern Munich's playing staff, and then compare it to the top Premiership clubs.
I really do not see a criticism of the Pozzos as any sort of attack but equally you should not see a defence of them as an attack either. I think you have to understand that lots of things come in packages. If you buy a Jaguar you do not get BMW parts in it - even if individually some of those parts might be better The Pozzos have a model They have had it for 30 years. It works for them and frankly it does for me. Suggesting they can do things differently is interesting but assumes they have experience of that or could make it work. Personally having seen the Pozzo now for six or seven years I think they would not be able to stand back while a Mazzari or Silva got us relegated. It is not in their DNA. That needs to be understood. They do not know or have any experience of a Burnley or Huddersfiled model. It is easy to suggest the best animal should be made up of parts of this and parts of that but life is not like that. Unless you understand the basic philipsophy the Pozzos seem to operate by then you cannot know if they could make an alien (to them) system work. So to suggest their successful way of hiring and firing managers should change is just specualtion. I like the package we have got with them.
Your analysis of car firms is a little bit out Leo. They do actually cooperate very much with each other on parts. Similarly a successfull car firm such as Daimler knows that the same business or marketing strategies which work in one country would not necessarily work in another. So they adapt. Just as it is expected that our South American or Southern European imports adapt not just to football but also to daily life in England. We actually have a larger playing squad than any of the top six clubs (if they are all fit which is seldom) - unlike some European Leagues, where they have reserve teams competing in the lower leagues, it is difficult to keep such a large squad happy and match fit - hence the large rate of injuries. Every single season since Jokanovic we have seen a dip in form in the second half of the season, and have crept over the line from there. Sooner or later the constellation is going to be wrong and the dip in form will come sooner, and then we are in trouble. Throwing in players on mass for the season and saying to a manager (who is also only visiting) make the best of it and send the rest back is going to go badly wrong at some stage. How many of our managers since Jokanovic have come to the end of the season still not knowing what their best starting 11 was ? I notice that whilst at Granada they employed nearly all Spanish managers - why the different policy with us ? Was it that Spanish managers were more likely to buy into the Pozzo model, or do they genuinely think that English managers are not up for it ? Where is the possibility within the Pozzo model for our youth products to come through ? I am happy with our place in the league and happy with the economic security they have brought with them. But there are still reservations on many other things which are central to my understanding of the history and soul of our club.
Cologne - there are times when you are so literal. Do you honestly beleive that I know or care much about car parts - it seemed an illustrative way of suggesting that certain things are composed of specific element and you cannot substitue one for another. Try to find a similar perhap non car metaphor of your own. Failing that how about substituting either hydrogen or oxygen and still making water. The Pozzos are what they are. They are not the Pizzos or the Pazzos. So they have a methodology and stick to it. They seem quite happy for now. If anyone wants something else they may need to replace the Pozzos witht the Pazzos
Do you understand Italian Leo ? We could indeed replace the Pozzos with the Pazzos - Pazzo means 'mad' 'crazy' or 'insane', via the Neapolitan Pazze or from the Latin Patiens=Suffering. Pazzia means madness and Pazzo refers to a madman. So we could be owned by the madmen.
I could add that your other example 'Pizzo' means protection money - pizzu is the Sicilian word for beak, as in 'wetting your beak'. So it appears that the family name Pozzo is half way between a 'madman' and 'protection money'
If I can risk returning to the debate on the Pozzos. If Watford had kept Dyche and then our league position and playing record had been identical in each of the seasons since would you be content or is there another factor you are not happy with?
Identical in terms of league position then yes. What SD. and Jokanovic both achieved was improvement over the course of a season - none of the others have done this.
I agree with this..... I see both SD and Joka as good honest( well who knows) managers... also felt that about GZ But would swap what SD has done with Burnley for the half dozen we have had any day..... I like the relationship with the manager and we just dont get it these days...
