Just been spending some time looking at the enigma that is Victor Orta. Looked at his past, the players he finds, his vast address book etc. Nobody had really heard of him outside of those inside football, before he landed at Boro. Of the players he took into The Riverside media reports have this verdict. Of all the players he took only 4 were flops. Some came good in season 2 as they needed to develop. 1) De Laet 2) De Sart 3) Ramirez 4) Rhodes - blistering start got them promotion then fell out with karanka and sold 5) Da Silva 6) De Roon 7) Negredo- 10 goals without any service so went home 8) Traore 9) Valdes 10) Bamford 11) Gestede All the above gave great service and some still there who have recently lived up to expectations. Since Orta went to Leeds and had a different budget a combined poll of Leeds fans, and sports media have the following opinions: Felix - Miss sacko - Miss Lassoga - Hit but needs service Pennington - Miss Cibicki - Miss Alioski - Jury out LDB - Jury out Roberts - Jury out Saiz - Hit CBJ - Miss Klich - Hit stupidity not to play him hope he gets a chance next season Forshaw - Hit Grot - Miss Lonners - Miss Ekuban - Jury out. So far not a good strike rate but playing in bargain basement budget doesn't help. But with 4 players with jury out and I include Klich in that, it would mean his strike rate at Leeds would be less than 50% unless the club decide to give some of those who let us down this season, another chance. Lets face it, at Boro Orta had a bigger budget and even then players like Bamford and Traore were crap until this season, indeed one player was sent out on loan to Derby but by all accounts Pulis wants him back next season. So the question is, do we need someone with contacts who is great in bargain basement or do we give Orta time?
It would seem that Stevie Gerrard isn't interested in Olly McBurnie and this is now official from within Rangers. OMcB isnt wanted, which means Orta has been made aware..... BUT do we need any more young strikers? If we end up with Ekuban hes a kid, Edmondson, a kid, Clarke a kid, Dalby a kid, Machuca a kid, Roberts a kid. See whats happening here? OMcB is another young kid but yes a proven scorer. Orta is keen by all accounts?
I'll come back to this post when I've a little more time to reply to your main question, but whilst I know you rate Klich, where as I have no opinion, other than the Dutch league is pitiful these days, so performances in that league are not a good way to judge, but of the 9 midfielders who have played for Utrecht this season, Klich is rated the second lowest of those, although he does also have the 4th highest pass completion of that team. Now whilst I know nothing anyone says on here will change your opinion of Klich, I can at least provide the basis of my evidence on why I don't rate performanes in the Dutch league and this is why I cannot get excited about how a player we have sent out on loan is doing well in a foreign league. Jurgen Locadia - 80 games for PSV, sold for £17m to Brighton where he has played 150 minutes of football Thomas Lam - 80 games for PSV - Loan to Notts Forest played 11 games, played 27 games for PSV this year Lennart Thy - 130+ games in German 2nd and 3rd Divisions, played 30 games this season in Dutch 1st division El Khayati (29 years old) - played 35 games in 4 seasons for both Burton and QPR, played 42 games in last 2 years in Dutch first division Ricky Van Wolfswinkel - Dutch international who scored 62 goals over 5 seasons in both Dutch and Portugal leagues, signed by Norwich for £10m, loaned to both St Etienne and Real Betis, scored 6 goals in 40 games at those clubs, sold by Norwich to Vitesse Arnhem for £600k, scores 20 goals in 32 games, and is then sold for £5m to Basel, where he has scored 10 goals in 19 games Luciano Narsingh - Over 130 starts for in dutch first division, 8 starts for Swansea Kristiano Jansson - Over 190 games in dutch first division, sold to Anderlecht, played 5 times, sold to some club in Azerbajin, played 23 times, moved to Serie A, played 5 times and loaned to Portland Timbers in USA Rick Karsdorp - 80 games for Feyenoord, played once for Roma Steven Berghuis - Dutch International - over 100 games in Dutch first division, bought by Watford for £6.5m, played 9 games, sold back to feyenoord, where he has since played 59 games in 2 seasons Viktor Fischer - approx 20 goals in 90 games for Ajax, bought by Middlesborough, 13 games 0 goals, sold to Mainz 0 goals in 10 games, now playing in Danish league scored 6 goals in 12 games This is not to say that that arent good players who have played in the Dutch leagues in recent years, Davidson Sanchez is probably the most well known, but all I'm trying to point out is that playing well in the Dutch 1st division is of little value when trying to access how well a player will play over here. We could both provide further samples of both players who in last few years have gone on and done well after playing in the Dutch leagues and also those that have fallen into obscurity, or at least not been as successful as envisaged, all I'm trying to say is that whilst I hope that Klich comes back here next year shows us what we missed this year and why TC was a fool not to play him, I'm not going to hold my breath Sorry Doc this was meant to be a brief response whilst I consider the main point you raised in your post, but I got a bit carried away on this point also
Klich had high pass rates at Leeds as well,but as most were backwards,not much use,I to have kept an eye on him in Holland,and he gets subbed off nearly every game,in a league I believe is lower championship standard apart from the top 2-3 sides.From the games I have seen its very slow and players from there seem to struggle with the pace of English football.
OK Doc Here's my response to your original question, I guess the main thing that I noticed, is that with Boro, most of the signings had previous experience with English football, and this can be perceived as less of a risk, when compared to the players Orta signed for ourselves, so not only did our signings need to gel as a team and get to know a lot of new players, the majority of them also had to get use to playing football in England. De Laet - average player championship/premier league prior to loan spell at Boro, still average player De Sart - came from Belgium league, which I have similar view as the dutch league, majority of players are poor, good ones are snaffled up by clubs as teenagers Ramirez - Was nothing special when Southampton bought him, best could be said is Boro signed him for free and sold him for £9 mil Rhodes - established championship player, but one I consider to have been overpriced Da Silva - Half decent championship player De Roon - Decent signing, funnily enough one of those successful dutch league players who have made good playing in major European leagues Negredo - Decent signing, with premier league experience, was worth the gamble, in short term Traore - Decent signing, young so potential for future Valdes - Reasonable stop gap signing given he was 35, but only short term signing Bamford - Decent championship player Gestede - 2 decent seasons in championship, desperation signing Felix - Miss Sacko - Miss Lasogga - Miss ( I've always liked Lasogga prior to him joining us, but we were never going to be able to afford him) Pennington - Jury still out (Think he will make a decent championship defender, issue is that at 23 he hasnt played that many competitive games, and thus still needs leadership and guidance, and our defence is not the best place for that ) Alioski - Jury still out ( cant help but like him, but he has more bad games than good so unsure) LDB - Miss, again came from Belgium league as his age, and the fact he said he has issues concentrating on the game, makes you wonder why we ever signed him Roberts - Jury still out ( never seen him play so cant comment) Saiz - Qualified hit (again someone I like but I have questions about attitude) Klich - Jury still out (again we aint seen him play so who knows) Forshaw - Qualified hit ( done well so far, but I remember folk saying that about Okane last season ) Grot - qualified miss (Selling Wood meant that we had to play him in first team more than I think was expected, I expect him to meet my aspirations of someone who has come from the Dutch league, but as he is still only 20, I'm tempted to see how he develops next season) Lonnegan - Miss but not sure if the blame should be laid at Orta's door for this, he had played for us previously and did ok in that spell Ekukban - Miss (at 24 I would have expected him to settle quicker than he did, thus if he couldnt impress this season, I cant see him improving) So whilst I dont rate many of the players that Orta signed for Boro, a lot of them had championship experience, and thus bringing in a couple of players from foreign leagues, would not be as disruptive.
Aha sorry Doc, my mistake, apologies for that, I missed that it was a combined effort, and not your own individual opinion
Think it was the Hit next to Klich's name that gave us that impression Doc,despite what you think,I would love him to be the player to drive us to the premier league,I just haven't seen anything that makes me believe that,and ask Glory I see players being better than they are.
Klich was playing great and the team were flying up the league. He has been in the leagues team of the week twice but the last 3 games he has been subbed off on the hour, so not sure if injury or just not playing well
As I stated above though, I wouldnt put too much into that, or to put it another way , I would anticipate that the majority of our senior players could go and play in the Dutch first division and not look out of place
It’s an interesting OP. As someone who has been blaming Orta I’ve been coming round to the reality that the real problem is we have (another) owner who won’t, or can’t, spend enough to give us a squad valuable enough to make promotion likely. As I’ve posted many times lately, the 4 squads way more expensive than the rest are Wolves, Fulham, Villa and Boro. Look where they are in the table as we approach end of season, only Cardiff spoiling their party by over performing v squad value (Colin not such a w——r after all maybe). Yes you can buck the trend a bit (Cardiff, Derby, Wall, Brentford and maybe Opswich did better than squad value - but only one of them is in the top 6
Off topic And no soliciting on this site, please. Just pm him with pics of you in your tranny gear and I’m sure he’ll let you know
Couple of really good posts on here Aski, way more analytical than my lackadaisical approach. I would say, if Grot shone in the Dutch League, the standard must be so low, he really is awful. I know you left for a while and can’t remember why but keep posting, you really add to this forum!
The thing with both the Dutch and Belgium leagues, and to a lesser extent the French league, is that a lot of players are playing in the top flight divisions when they are 17,18 and 19, and thus by the time they reach the age of 21, those deemed skillful enough or with potential have been snapped up by one of the larger European clubs, thus I'm wary of those who play in the above leagues in their mid 20's, as whilst you would like to think they must be at least championship quality, I'm mindful of those who have come over here and played for other clubs, without much success. Two that spring to mind are Jelle Vossen who played in Belgium league, he had scored 50 goals in 80 appearances by the time he was 21, and Everton were meant to be interested in him. Nothing came of that and he continued to play for Genk until he was 25 when first Boro, then Burnley took him on loan, where in two seasons he made 26 appearances scoring 8 goals. He then went back to Belgium and has scored 35 goals in 58 starts. The other that springs to mind is Luuk De Jong who scored 37 goals in 64 games, that Borussia M'Gladbach paid £15mil for him, he scored 6 goals in 39 games, they loaned him to Newcastle where he failed to score, and eventually sold him to PSV for £5m, where he has scored 66 goals in approx 110 games. Grot's a hard one, in that he is at that age where he should've been snapped up, we have to remember that he has only just turned 20, we signed him as a 19 year old, who had played a total of 30 games in the Dutch top league. He was bought as a potential prospect, ( probably someone to sell on for a nice profit in a couple of years), but circumstances meant that he was thrown in at the deep end, in a foreign country playing a different type of football than he had been coached, and also initially not in his natural position, so I can understand him not being an instant success, and in a way thats why with Ellands thread of who to keep etc, I'm more than happy to give him a chance. Do I personally think Grot will come good, probably not, but hes played a total of just over 3 whole games, if you go by time on the pitch, so I'm not willing to castigate him at present, as its not his fault, that we as a club didnt invest in an experienced first team squad, but instead relied upon either cheap foreign imports or young potential players not ready for first team football
Thing is with Grot, what attributes does he have other than big? Ekuban, whilst not threatening goals at least looks like he should be a player. For his size he doesn’t dominate physically, like Lasogga he seems to shrink when he jumps for a header, hasn’t got blistering pace, clumsy touch and doesn’t pick a pass. Yes, I will have egg on my face if he turns it around but there are a lot of basic things to put right for that to happen.
