Is 4-2-3-1 the best formation to accommodate our best* XIs? I'll ignore the back 4s for now and focus on the front 6s Utd: Anderson Cleverley Nani Rooney Young Hernandez City: Yaya De Jong Silva Aguero Nasri Dzeko Liverpool: Adam Lucas Gerrard Suarez Downing Carroll I'm not sure enough about Arsenal's current team to speculate about their formation and I'm not convinced Chelsea would use this. *best is subject to current form, injuries, opinion, etc
If we were to play 4231 I feel Cleverley wouldn't be the right man for the job alongside Anderson, it would have to be Carrick or Fletcher. I wouldn't be surprised to see Fergie use that formation at some point in Europe or in tough away games, but I think he'll stick with the 4411 we have been playing for now.
Kenny has been using 4-2-3-1 since the summer and so far we've looked more attacking, but it takes a good striker to really make it work. A defensive midfielder is a must with that setup, with 3 attacking mids and a striker you leave yourself open to counter attack, so a defensive midfielder and a defensively minded passing midfielder is possibly the best 2 man setup in the middle. The 3 attacking midfielders definitely help with width, and if you have a good target man you'll score plenty of goals.
I suppose if Chelsea adopted the system they could go: Mikel Essien (when fit) Anelka Lampard Mata Torres Maybe even drop Lampard deep for Essien, bring Mata central and Malouda left. Kalou could go right too. Arsenal, again if they adopt it: Song Wilshere Walcott Gervinho Arshavin Van Persie
Psycho2k - i think anderson is gunna be outta this world for you this season so far from what ive seen looks a top quality player this term, finally stepping out of the shadow of more experienced players.
Well, that's kind of my point - who are the wide men in the 4 and where are they actually playing? Further forward than the CMs, alongside Rooney who is playing deep. 4-2-3-1
I agree, I have always liked Anderson but injuries have stopped him from having a long spell in the team, this season I think he will step up and be the main man in the center of the park.
Young so far looks to play more like an orthodox wide man that he did for Villa, dropping deep and looking to build play with the midfield, Nani last season was often too far up the pitch when we played 4 in midfield leaving the full back exposed, but so far this season he seems to be tracking back a lot more which means they are both playing like wide men in a 4 man midfield. Rooney seems to just have a free role, and rightly so if you ask me, when he drops in the hole between defense and midfield he can be unplayable, especially with Chicharito looking to play off the shoulder of the defense if they try and squeeze up to put pressure on Rooney. That was the problem with Welbeck in the first half against Spurs, he dropped too deep looking to collect the ball (Berbatov usually does the same when playing alongside Rooney), in the second half he actually pressurized the defense and got his reward. Of course all of this is just my opinion of how we seem to play, and it will probably change against different opponents, such as against weaker, more defensive teams we will probably push the wide men further forward to try and spread the defense and open up space.
I commented on a thread the other day with a similar team and formation and yeah agree with you it should be the way we go this year. good cover in all areas and allows our attacks to flow
IMO the distinction between 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 for all the nothing it matters is whether the player in the 'hole' is a striker or a midfielder. In a 4-2-3-1 you get a Gerrard, a Sneijder, an Iniesta or a Lampard. The OP shows that City, United and Liverpool all have strikers there - Aguero, Rooney and Suarez - so they're playing 4-4-1-1. 4-4-1-1 is a variant on 4-4-2 4-2-3-1 is a variant on 4-5-1
This, but also I think it depends on the wide players. If you have hug the line, beat the fullback wingers like Valencia, Navas, Downing, Krasic and the Giggs of old then you are more likely to have a 4-4-1-1 as the wingers will pull wide of the centre mid to give them space to run at the fullback. If you have wingers who cut inside to attack the penalty area like Nani, Pedro, Mata, Silva or Young then you are more likely to play a 4-2-3-1 as the wide men will push ahead of the centre mid to make it easier to cut inside between the opposition defence and midfield. A lot also depends on the team you play. If the opponents are likely to attack you and leave gaps between defence and midfield then you'll want a 4-2-3-1 with players who can exploit that space. If the opponents have a pure defensive holding midfielder like Mikel, Busquets or Lucas, and are setting their stall out to defend, then you'll probably want to consider playing wider as a good DM will cut out the runs inside by the wide men. For Utd, I think signing Young has given us the ability to play a more effective 4-2-3-1 that we couldn't manage as well with Park or Valencia in the team. But the decision will still depend on the opposition - I think we'll still play a 4-4-1-1 against opponents that will sit deep and just try to shut us out.
There seem to be a lot of good players at the moment who blur the distinction between winger and striker and can play right across the width of the pitch.
I think that's down to two main factors. The first is that both Ronaldo and Messi started out that way, and as they're the two best players in the world they're the ones all the other wingers look to follow. The second is that referees have started giving so much protection to keepers, and even defenders, on high crosses that they are not as effective any more. The days of Shearer, Sutton, Carew and Davies pressuring the keeper to force an error are largely over, and so wide players need to find new ways to create.
Why? They offer a different approach to the same objective. It really depends upon the quality of the midfield and attack to be able to deliver the highest quality and be adaptable to the strengths and weaknessses of the opposition.
Mainly cos if a striker pressured a keeper, or even a CB, nowadays in the way that strikers used to they would be blown for a foul 75% of the time, whereas a decade ago it was about 25% of the time. I agree that you can still succeed with wingers delivering crosses, particularly if they are accurate, but I don't think crosses are the decisive weapon they used to be. Just look at how few dedicated wingers there now are in the top teams in the PL compared to a decade ago.
4-2-3-1 is th way to go forward, however the formation should not be rigid. The attack minded players should have the freedom to do their own thing. Let the back 6 just sit( or maybe just five of the 6) with the 6th slightly more advanced to create an attacking five. Supposing its this. Lucas Gerrard Kuyt Suarez Downing Carroll. However the strength is having Adam and Henderson to come off the bench. Maybe Adam could start instead of Lucas and Henderson could start instead of Kuyt. I would also expect those five players to move about and all end up in a central attacking role at some stage within the same game.
I agree; you only have to look at Carroll so far this season to see that he's being penalised for any kind of contact in the box. As a side note to there being less 'touch line' wingers around now, what we are seeing is more attacking full backs filling this kind of role.
That isn't applied evenly across the line though. A less large striker can get away with a lot more than a larger striker. As an example- at Liverpool- Crouch and Carroll got way more calls against them than say, Suarez, or Kuyt even for similar challenges. Crouch or Carroll would only need a tap to be called- whereas Kuyt can get away with quite a bit. I think there are more "intimidating looking forwards" these days than there used to be. Refs seemed to be biased against the tall (Crouch) and the fierce looking (Carroll) than they the less intimidating looking (Kuyt). Perhaps Torres should grow long blonde hair again to look less intimidating so he can get away with more?
Milk. So by your theory a less imposing striker like say Milan Baros would have had their goal allowed in the Liverpool-Sunderland game?, It was Carrolls size that went against him?
