Off Topic The Politics Thread

[ELLERS]

I'm sceptical about the German coalition. It's not sound, and Merkel is past her sell-by date due to her reckless immigration policy. If the German populace lose faith in the parties in coalition (Merkel's Christian Democrats and the SPD), the party ready to take their place is the right wing Alternative for Deutschland. There are similarities here with the last days of the Weimar Republic in the early 1930's, and we all know what succeeded that. Of course, I don't seeing 1930's Germany being repeated in the C21st, but if Merkel's gamble fails, Germany could get a right wing leader like Austria or Hungary, ...or indeed Trump, and an Germany First agenda.

The zealots in Brussels are too intransigent to all much needed reforms in the EU, and that could ultimately bring the whole thing down. Then, ironically, there could be reversion to a common market between friendly and independent European nations.

Bloke from Die Zeit said yesterday that she (Merkel) is a 'dead woman walking' and she won't last 2 years. Her party is in 3rd place. It's a quick fix. Many in Germany are P'd with the coalition before it's started.

I think the whole thing is falling down and only the die-hards are keeping it going. (that's happened before in history).

The EU is in a mess. Macron said if there was a referendum in France they would leave. Surely that says it all! The results in Italy are another example of people rejecting not only politics but the EU.
All the crap that people have said about Brexit and leaving has come back to bite them in the bum.
Funnily none of the usual suspects want to comment on Italy? How can they! I in 3 voted 5 Star, a party who's huge majority is under 40. So it's not just the old ruining it for the young.
Listen to the Italian news last they were saying unemployment is 11% with some areas of 30 and 50%! No wonder they voted for 5 star.

It's not just the UK but most of Europe that are fed up with the EU. I think we are getting out at the right time.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

Maybe it will be a massive thing and the EU will crumble ... that’s not the concern to me
It’s what the U.K. becomes afterwards and the idea that is can all be fixed

It will take a massive shift towards unity but the thing I cannot accept from any Brexiteer is the 48 have to lump it and the 52 were in some way righteous. You have a split plus idiot politics I do not trust we can do a Germany and the first sign of discontent over money from the 48 will only deepen the divide imo

My Catalan and French friends still cannot understand how a 52/48 was allowed on such a complex issue but it’s here

What makes me sick are the people who have said tell them to all F off that mentality is frankly an embarrassment as are our current political representatives

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Bloke from Die Zeit said yesterday that she (Merkel) is a 'dead woman walking' and she won't last 2 years. Her party is in 3rd place. It's a quick fix. Many in Germany are P'd with the coalition before it's started.

I think the whole thing is falling down and only the die-hards are keeping it going. (that's happened before in history).

The EU is in a mess. Macron said if there was a referendum in France they would leave. Surely that says it all! The results in Italy are another example of people rejecting not only politics but the EU.
All the crap that people have said about Brexit and leaving has come back to bite them in the bum.
Funnily none of the usual suspects want to comment on Italy? How can they! I in 3 voted 5 Star, a party who's huge majority is under 40. So it's not just the old ruining it for the young.
Listen to the Italian news last they were saying unemployment is 11% with some areas of 30 and 50%! No wonder they voted for 5 star.

It's not just the UK but most of Europe that are fed up with the EU. I think we are getting out at the right time.

I'm incredibly sympathetic to Italy (Greece too, for that matter). Unemployment raging, and they have had to bear a large part of the migration from North Africa with little help from the rest of the EU.

When you hear that the rest of the EU cannot understand Brexit, and feel we're making life difficult for everybody, it is not the man in the street talking. It's the elite, the politicians, the EU MP's, lobbyists for the big multi-nationals and the left wing press. It's not just Brexit that will damage the EU, it's continued inflexibility from the ivory towers of Brussels.

 

[ELLERS]

Maybe it will be a massive thing and the EU will crumble ... that’s not the concern to me
It’s what the U.K. becomes afterwards and the idea that is can all be fixed

It will take a massive shift towards unity but the thing I cannot accept from any Brexiteer is the 48 have to lump it and the 52 were in some way righteous. You have a split plus idiot politics I do not trust we can do a Germany and the first sign of discontent over money from the 48 will only deepen the divide imo

My Catalan and French friends still cannot understand how a 52/48 was allowed on such a complex issue but it’s here

What makes me sick are the people who have said tell them to all F off that mentality is frankly an embarrassment as are our current political representatives

The UK problems and Brexit are a bit different. What we become afterwards will be the responsibility of the government.
The unrest in other EU countries is growing very quickly. We have seen the rise of far-right parties in Germany/Holland/France/Italy/Austria/Estonia and so on. This is not a good thing but many of these problems have been caused by the EU.
As for your Catalan and French friends, you need to tell them it's called 'democracy'. Or we could always lock up people who vote against it...Sorry I am thinking of Catalan.
As for our representatives, agree we do have some weak politicians. We needed someone stronger who would have said 'we are doing this' instead of the mixed signals some are giving.

I think some people don't understand others and tar them with the same brush. Not all leavers are thick racists. Once people accept that then I am sure people will move forward. TBH when the house of cards comings tumbling down, no one will care.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Maybe it will be a massive thing and the EU will crumble ... that’s not the concern to me
It’s what the U.K. becomes afterwards and the idea that is can all be fixed

It will take a massive shift towards unity but the thing I cannot accept from any Brexiteer is the 48 have to lump it and the 52 were in some way righteous. You have a split plus idiot politics I do not trust we can do a Germany and the first sign of discontent over money from the 48 will only deepen the divide imo

My Catalan and French friends still cannot understand how a 52/48 was allowed on such a complex issue but it’s here

What makes me sick are the people who have said tell them to all F off that mentality is frankly an embarrassment as are our current political representatives

It had to be a simple majority. To have a situation where most of those who voted wanted to leave the EU but deny them would simply result in a festering wound on our democratic system.

The F off mentality is not aimed at European countries, but the zealots in Brussels.

 

[ELLERS]

When you hear that the rest of the EU cannot understand Brexit, and feel we're making life difficult for everybody, it is not the man in the street talking. It's the elite, the politicians, the EU MP's, lobbyists for the big industrials and the left wing press. It's not just Brexit that will damage the EU, it's continued inflexibility from the ivory towers of Brussels.

Spot on mate.

Many of those remoaners living in London/South don't understand what it's like for some poor family up north who have had their community devastated by unemployment, closure of companies, industry. Families living on food handouts with no prospect of getting any better. What I heard yesterday about those twats in Brussels wasting millions was unbelievable.
I will always say to people, don't blame me for voting leave, blame the non-adapting muppets that run the EU.

 

[colognehornet]

I'm sceptical about the German coalition. It's not sound, and Merkel is past her sell-by date due to her reckless immigration policy. If the German populace lose faith in the parties in coalition (Merkel's Christian Democrats and the SPD), the party ready to take their place is the right wing Alternative for Deutschland. There are similarities here with the last days of the Weimar Republic in the early 1930's, and we all know what succeeded that. Of course, I don't seeing 1930's Germany being repeated in the C21st, but if Merkel's gamble fails, Germany could get a right wing leader like Austria or Hungary, ...or indeed Trump, and an Germany First agenda.

The zealots in Brussels are too intransigent to all much needed reforms in the EU, and that could ultimately bring the whole thing down. Then, ironically, there could be reversion to a common market between friendly and independent European nations.

Germany has had a constitution problem for quite some time Goldie. A glance at the latest opinion polls here shows the following picture:
CDU/CSU - 34%
SPD - 19%
Green - 12%
FDP - 9%
Die Linke - 9%
AfD - 13%

I guess that the differences between the parties may not been known to you, but all other parties rule out either the AfD or die Linke as coalition partners (for different reasons, and not justifiably in the case of die Linke). But the fact remains that 22%-25% of voters are voting for parties which are, in a sense, excluded from power. Forming a coalition between any of the others is difficult - SPD/Green is the only which which is really viable. This is not a new problem, and has been there ever since the re unification of Germany. The fact is that the mainstream parties have had difficulties establishing a foothold in the ex GDR. Delete the votes of the East Germans and the picture becomes much less complicated. The 'stability' in Germany arises from 2 things - firstly that a CDU/CSU-SPD coalition is possible (this is the equivalent of a Tory-Labour coalition), secondly from the fact that Germany is so decentralized and can, in effect, run itself from the state level. The individual states of Germany can even sign international agreements.

Regarding Merkel - although she is a political opponent, I fully support her early stand on refugees. It was an emergency solution based on a dangerous bottleneck which had already developed in the Balkans - and, to be honest, the town where I live has taken 400 refugees (equivalent to 2% of its population) and I cannot think of one German who has been inconvenienced by it. We also had the accomodation for more. For those who criticize Merkel on this - what was the alternative ? Leave them in the Balkans until the police started shooting ?

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

The EU could well have to change but that will no longer be anything to do with the UK
So what is left for the UK

Nothing but a good old moan

The man on the street based in the UK knows nothing about politics abroad it’s edited and force fed

Currently Brussels is seen as a haven for corruption. I say get your own house in order first before looking onwards

Attempting to draw comparisons based on news is not where I am at in any way. A political conversation I prefer is with people who actually live it

 

[kiwiqpr]

The EU could well have to change but that will no longer be anything to do with the UK
So what is left for the UK

Nothing but a good old moan

The man on the street based in the UK knows nothing about politics abroad it’s edited and force fed

Currently Brussels is see as a haven for corruption. I say get your own house in order first before looking onwards

would be the same for the man on the street in any country wouldnt it

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

I value my own insight as I swap cultures every 14 days and believe me there is a massive gulf

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

would be the same for the man on the street in any country wouldnt it

Not what I have seen and witnessed
The public expression of the Catalans and their cause is something you would never see in the U.K. the culture is united everywhere I have been in last four days
The UK couldn’t organise anything as we only are looking out for ourselves

 

[kiwiqpr]

Not what I have seen and witnessed
The public expression of the Catalans and their cause is something you would never see in the U.K. the culture is united everywhere I have been in last four days
The UK couldn’t organise anything as we only are looking out for ourselves

but thats not what you said

how much would the average catalonian on the street know about politics abroad

 

[colognehornet]

but thats not what you said

how much would the average catalonian on the street know about politics abroad

Your theory doesn't apply to all nations Kiwi, some populations are more politicized than others, and any party member would know about the activities of parallel parties in other countries. In Britain only just over 1% of the population are in political parties - in Austria it is over 12%, so I guess the Austrian man in the street probably knows more about the international scene. As a member of the German Green Party we have connections to the English, French, Dutch and Belgian Greens, and I suppose that is the same for other party members. If you are interested, and active in, politics then you would know what is going on beyond your own frontiers. If the 'Man in the street', doesn't know anything about foreign politics then you can bet that he also knows very little about those of his own country.

 

[Sooperhoop]

I'm incredibly sympathetic to Italy (Greece too, for that matter). Unemployment raging, and they have had to bear a large part of the migration from North Africa with little help from the rest of the EU.

When you hear that the rest of the EU cannot understand Brexit, and feel we're making life difficult for everybody, it is not the man in the street talking. It's the elite, the politicians, the EU MP's, lobbyists for the big multi-nationals and the left wing press. It's not just Brexit that will damage the EU, it's continued inflexibility from the ivory towers of Brussels.

Absolutely. The biggest cheerleaders here who champion the EU are failed politicians who have milked the gravy train both in and beyond the EU. The simplest yardstick of that corrupt organisation is when did they last publish audited accounts? Any other organisation with such a record would have been wound up long ago and perpetrators prosecuted. But far from addressing such a scandal they just want ever more. It's demise can't come soon enough...

 

[durbar2003]

Your theory doesn't apply to all nations Kiwi, some populations are more politicized than others, and any party member would know about the activities of parallel parties in other countries. In Britain only just over 1% of the population are in political parties - in Austria it is over 12%, so I guess the Austrian man in the street probably knows more about the international scene. As a member of the German Green Party we have connections to the English, French, Dutch and Belgian Greens, and I suppose that is the same for other party members. If you are interested, and active in, politics then you would know what is going on beyond your own frontiers. If the 'Man in the street', doesn't know anything about foreign politics then you can bet that he also knows very little about those of his own country.

I hate greens (except peas)

 

[seagullhoop]

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http://www.businessinsider.com/study-strength-politics-conservatives-liberals-2013-5

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Germany has had a constitution problem for quite some time Goldie. A glance at the latest opinion polls here shows the following picture:
CDU/CSU - 34%
SPD - 19%
Green - 12%
FDP - 9%
Die Linke - 9%
AfD - 13%

I guess that the differences between the parties may not been known to you, but all other parties rule out either the AfD or die Linke as coalition partners (for different reasons, and not justifiably in the case of die Linke). But the fact remains that 22%-25% of voters are voting for parties which are, in a sense, excluded from power. Forming a coalition between any of the others is difficult - SPD/Green is the only which which is really viable. This is not a new problem, and has been there ever since the re unification of Germany. The fact is that the mainstream parties have had difficulties establishing a foothold in the ex GDR. Delete the votes of the East Germans and the picture becomes much less complicated. The 'stability' in Germany arises from 2 things - firstly that a CDU/CSU-SPD coalition is possible (this is the equivalent of a Tory-Labour coalition), secondly from the fact that Germany is so decentralized and can, in effect, run itself from the state level. The individual states of Germany can even sign international agreements.

Regarding Merkel - although she is a political opponent, I fully support her early stand on refugees. It was an emergency solution based on a dangerous bottleneck which had already developed in the Balkans - and, to be honest, the town where I live has taken 400 refugees (equivalent to 2% of its population) and I cannot think of one German who has been inconvenienced by it. We also had the accomodation for more. For those who criticize Merkel on this - what was the alternative ? Leave them in the Balkans until the police started shooting ?

As usual, an excellent and illuminating report from our man on the ground, Cologne! Most interested in what you say, particularly about the effect the unification between West and East Germany has had. My understanding is that AfD is now the third largest party in the Bundestag. Smaller than the CDU/CSU or the SPD, and a great deal smaller than those combined in a coalition. The danger though, lies in what you have said, that the current coalition is like UK Tories and Labour working together. I just don't think they could do that, absent some international crisis like a world war. And if the CDU/SPD coalition fails in ignominy, it seems likely AfD will take many of the disillusioned voters. It depends partly on the AfD, personalities, public profile and exposure and the skill with which they design their policies.

So far as Merkel is concerned, I hear what you say about the effect of the immigrants in your local area. We are getting reports here that there are now lawless, no-go areas in Germany. That's manna from heaven for the AfD. I think Merkel was unwise to give the green light to mass immigration. A drip feed is much safer. The alternative? For me, those that came over with the traffickers should have been taken back to North Africa, and Western Overseas Aid used to pay for safe camps where claims for asylum seekers could be processed, and economic migrants weeded out. It's water under the bridge now. Brexit. Growing popularism on the Continent of Europe. A possible trade war with America. The inexorable rise of a militarily powerful China. Rocketman firing off from North Korea. There's a lot of politics about at the moment.

 

[colognehornet]

As usual, an excellent and illuminating report from our man on the ground, Cologne! Most interested in what you say, particularly about the effect the unification between West and East Germany has had. My understanding is that AfD is now the third largest party in the Bundestag. Smaller than the CDU/CSU or the SPD, and a great deal smaller than those combined in a coalition. The danger though, lies in what you have said, that the current coalition is like UK Tories and Labour working together. I just don't think they could do that, absent some international crisis like a world war. And if the CDU/SPD coalition fails in ignominy, it seems likely AfD will take many of the disillusioned voters. It depends partly on the AfD, personalities, public profile and exposure and the skill with which they design their policies.

So far as Merkel is concerned, I hear what you say about the effect of the immigrants in your local area. We are getting reports here that there are now lawless, no-go areas in Germany. That's manna from heaven for the AfD. I think Merkel was unwise to give the green light to mass immigration. A drip feed is much safer. The alternative? For me, those that came over with the traffickers should have been taken back to North Africa, and Western Overseas Aid used to pay for safe camps where claims for asylum seekers could be processed, and economic migrants weeded out. It's water under the bridge now. Brexit. Growing popularism on the Continent of Europe. A possible trade war with America. The inexorable rise of a militarily powerful China. Rocketman firing off from North Korea. There's a lot of politics about at the moment.

As I said Goldie, we were sent 400 of them, and have volunteeered to take 300 more. I say 'volunteered', but it is actually worth our while because the municipality gets a grant for each one of them paid out by the state government in Düsseldorf. Unfortunately many towns where the coffers are empty are all too ready to cash in on this.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Your theory doesn't apply to all nations Kiwi, some populations are more politicized than others, and any party member would know about the activities of parallel parties in other countries. In Britain only just over 1% of the population are in political parties - in Austria it is over 12%, so I guess the Austrian man in the street probably knows more about the international scene. As a member of the German Green Party we have connections to the English, French, Dutch and Belgian Greens, and I suppose that is the same for other party members. If you are interested, and active in, politics then you would know what is going on beyond your own frontiers. If the 'Man in the street', doesn't know anything about foreign politics then you can bet that he also knows very little about those of his own country.

74.2% turnout in austria
66.1% in the uk
so even with the apparent high interest in politics still 1 in 4 austrians cant be bothered to vote

 

[Uber_Hoop]

The EU could well have to change but that will no longer be anything to do with the UK
So what is left for the UK

Nothing but a good old moan

The man on the street based in the UK knows nothing about politics abroad it’s edited and force fed

Currently Brussels is seen as a haven for corruption. I say get your own house in order first before looking onwards

Attempting to draw comparisons based on news is not where I am at in any way. A political conversation I prefer is with people who actually live it

Forgive me, Paulie, but it would seem to me to be an extremely arrogant position you’re taking in dismissing the UK ‘man on the street’ as ignorant. The wonderful thing about the one man (or woman), one vote democracy (when it comes to a referendum) is that it matters not a jot how clever or ignorant you are as a voter. You can be blissfully ignorant of absolutely everything outside of your toilet door, basking in your own personal bliss, but your vote is every bit as valuable as the clever left-wing academic with a Masters in Condescension.

It doesn’t matter whether a voter understands anything or not. He/she can vote in accordance with whatever limited understanding they have of the world and there’s nowt anybody can do about it.

All this baloney that the voter didn’t understand the question posed at the referendum is just that: baloney. It doesn’t matter. They’re allowed to understand what they want to understand or what their mental capacity allows them to understand.

I fear the Left would have an IQ test for voters.