Off Topic Political Debate

I hope to clear this one up with just the one post Arturo, because I feel this discussion may have highjacked the thread a little. It is impossible for me to be against the American people. They are nearly all of mixed ethnic descent and, as such, are a microcosm of the World - so 'hating' Americans would be like hating the World. Dislike of the USA. as a political entity is like dislike of an idea - an idea that has gone horribly wrong for many people. You are aware that anti Americanism has a long history to it. Commencing with the wrath of all royalists and European aristocratic hierarchies - as America was a young revolutionary nation. They were later hated by the Nazis and Fascists for not being an 'ethnic' nation based on blood and honour. Leftist dislike of the USA has a much shorter history and is based only on ideology, and the fact that they have tried to force that ideology on the rest of the World (ok. I admit that the USSR would have done the same but the Americans were better at it). America has 2 sides to it - on the one hand they have provided a home for many religious refugees - people like Quakers, Shakers and Mormons. People who, like myself, wanted to build their own communities away from persecution - sometimes even ones based on religious communism. I accept this - and I also accept that the constitution of the USA. was one of the most wonderfull documents. But I cannot accept the 37 sovereign nations which have been invaded by their army since 1945. Nore can I accept the classification that everyone who takes up arms against them is a terrorist, and is therefore lacking in basic rights (Guantanamo). Nore the legal presumption that no American serviceman can be held to account for war crimes. All of this is against their own constitution. For me the USA is the greatest threat to World peace - but this does not mean that I hate them. It just means that we should wake up to it.

 

You have made clear you do not hate "Americans". It is their society you seem to have a problem with - all the things I mentioned that you have previously had a go at. Perhaps as you say it is the American "idea".
I cannot see the point in talking about who else does not like America. Shall we next see which other countries we can identify that have half the world disliking them? I bet more than a few people would challenge your assertion that exactly 37 sovereign nations have been invaded by their army - but to be honest that is not only probably wrong but boring and irrelevant too. One man's invasion is another man's rescue. I am not interested in discussing details of wars. All wars are stupid and wrong. Who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist is also just semantics. Many people appear to have transitioned between the two descriptions. I also think most nations regard their enemies as enemies - probably terrorists. It is idle to pick on one country as if it had the preserve of all the evils you see.
America is no more a threat to world peace than a dozen or more other regimes around the world. Still you like to pick out America as it fits your ideology so that is your right.
I do agree though that we seem to have exhausted this avenue and maybe there are other political issues to discuss. I posted on a couple of other threads as this topic appeared to be going nowhere.

 

I don't think it was boring or irrelevant to those people in those 37 countries. Maybe you should ask more people in countries like Guatemala, Nicaragua, Chile, The Congo, Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan etc. The American armed forces are currently stationed in around 100 countries on this globe - with or without the consent of the local population - have their missiles based on Russia's doorstep yet still accuse the Russians as being the aggressors. If you cannot see the reality then there really is no helping you.

 

I don't see any of the people from those 37 countries on here - do you?
Can you name them all so I can challenge a few please?
I doubt you have asked people in those countries - you are just listing them from some anti-American database I guess. Even from your short list I could challenge your assertion they have been invaded. But as I said - this is a stupid boring sidetrack where you will just pick a country and pretend you know all about its history.
I am sure I need no helping - but question whether you do if you believe some of what you say. If you see the USSR as anything other than a latter day colonial aggressor then you are more naive than your simple 18th / 19th century political mentors. Luckily their empire - like most was overthrown.

 

I am not pretending to know anything which is not fact Arturo. My wife had the pleasure of being in police custody for 72 hours in Miami because she had to change flights there on her way to Mexico City and then Nicaragua. Because of the Nicaraguan Visa she had problems (this was the time of the Sandanista government) - she was on her way there as part of the literacy programme. The Sandanistas had decided that socialist democracy was not possible without people being able to read and write and so sent teams out into the villages for this purpose. At the time the CIA controlled most of the air space and aerial photographs and were able to pinpoint to the Contras exactly where to focus their attacks. These included villages, hospitals, schools not military targets - apparently literacy was more dangerous to them than weapons. The CIA has been deciding exactly which Latin American governments were allowed to survive for decades - treating the whole area as their backyard. I also know many who fled the Pinochet regime in Chile.

I am not trying to justify the USSR, although there were reasons for many of their actions. Nore am I trying to clog up this thread - it was, after all, yourself who brought it here from the Trump thread.

 

I thought we all agreed that one off personal stories do not count as reliable markers for anything. You cannot expect intelligent people to make judgements based on the so called evidence of one person can you?
With your background perhaps you and by connexion, she, is on a "watched" list. If I were the CIA I might consider a self confessed anarcho- communist-Kropotkinist a little bit of a risk - and any friends and family of his too.
Your comments read like typical propaganda I am afraid. I do not subscribe to such "knowledge" but I am glad you are so fully informed about the CIA and what they do or do not know.
I did not suggest anybody was clogging up this thread. Merely that it had run its course and lost focus when someone can claim that 91% of this or 37 countries were that with nothing other than their prejudice to back it up. 73.258% of statistics are made up. I am glad it came onto the politics thread as that is where it belonged rather than being to do with Trump.
If you remember it started when Dan objected to stereotypiing of America by people who object to similar when discussing France or Germany.

 

My response was only provoked by your accusation that I was speaking about things I have no knowledge about. As for having any Anarcho Communist connections, her trip to Nicaragua was well before she met me. Besides which I am free to express opinions on here which I would not necessarily do anywhere else - so I am not, as far as I am aware, on anyone's list (Unless the CIA read these boards). As for my comments reading like propaganda - are you sure that you are not a victim of it ? Do you get the whole truth about America sat where you are ? If you want to disprove anything which I have said then try and present your own material which disproves it.

 

I did not accuse you of that. I said personal stories are irrelevant. I also said that quoting mock statistics is not helpful Nobody knows 91% of anything nor that 37 countries were invaded. So her trip did not relate to you - but it is still a one off and no more relevant than a story I might tell of an experience with Argentinian intelligence. I do not blame you for keeping your views shielded from the CIA - but do you really believe their algorithms do not pick up your connexions - even on here? They monitor every mobile phone call so I am sure they will also monitor public web forums.
I do not get the whole truth about America - and as I have no bone to pick or dogma to uphold I accept some good and some bad for America - like every other country. I cannot prove the moon is not made of blue cheese. But that does not mean it is. It would be impossible to refute your generalised comments about America. I asked you to name the 37 countries but have not even had that list yet. It is not worth sending as you and I know that it is a list made up by people like yourself who are not friends of the US. I am not here to defend the US anyway - think what you like about them. I am very supportive of most of what they have done and do now. Without them we would be living in a far far worse world. But you will never accept that so why would I bother?

 

I really didn't want to have to write out anything as boring as this - but I will, just this once:

United States military interventions, and CIA operations since 1945:
China 1945-49
Italy 1947-48 (CIA)
Greece 1947-49
Phillipines 1945-53
South Korea 1945-53
Albania 1949-53 (CIA Operations)
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1953-1990s
Middle East 1956-58
Indonesia 1957-58
British Guyana 1953-64
Vietnam 1950-73
Cambodia 1955-73
The Congo 1960-65
Brazil 1961-64 (CIA help in military coup)
Dominican Rep. 1963-66
Cuba 1959
Chile 1964-73 (CIA and Military)
Greece 1964-74 (As Brazil)
East Timor
Nicaragua 1978-79
Grenada 1979-84
Libya (shooting of planes in their airspace)
Panama 1989
Iraq
Afghanistan
El Salvador 1980-92
Haiti 1987-94
Yugoslavia 1999

Sorry but you did ask for this !

 

There are actually a couple more but I got bored with typing. If you can find any other country with such an impressive list I will be surprised - and all to make life easy for US corporations.

 

So - not 37 then.
Sorry - you said "invaded" More than half this list is military or intelligence assistance and the other half are countries which were falling apart or a threat to other countries. You suggested America were an aggressor when in fact they were a white knight mostly. Unless you see life through communist glasses.
Now if you want actual invasion - write the list for USSR

 

I did actually leave a few off the list Arturo. In the case of Chile, Greece and Brazil it was a case of military help in establishing fascist dictatorships - in a few others it was a case of interfering in a civil war (not as neutrals) or it may have been a case of CIA undercover operations, and in some cases it was direct invasion. But in all cases it was the violation of another countries sovereignty. You have asked for a list for the USSR. This is also possible but it would be much shorter. You may, of course, raise the occupation of the Warsaw Pact countries - but here you should bear certain things in mind: The USSR lost 20 million dead in World War 2 (12 million of those were civilians) - did you expect that they would go marching into East Germany with roses for everyone ? You may say 'what about the rest' ? Operation Barbarossa was not only a German military manouvre - it was practically an Eastern European one. The 'German' army at Stalingrad was, actually, only 40% German. Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Croatia were all Axis countries. The invasion of the USSR included troops from Rumania, Hungary, Croatia and Slovakia - together there were as many Rumanians and Hungarians at Stalingrad as there were Germans. Read about Rumania's share in the Ukrainian holocaust before you judge how the Soviets treated these Eastern European countries. From the Warsaw Pact countries, all of them, with the exception of the Czech Republic and Poland had, together with Germany, declared war on the USSR. So what did you expect the USSR to do in return ?

 

And just a last point Arthur. What makes the USA. so dangerous is this - they have no direct experience of the ravages of war. Their Armies are everywhere but they themselves have no experience of such a thing - other than against each other. No American city has seen the sky above them black with bombers intent on destruction (and I hope they never do). The Russians know what this means, as do many other nations.

 

Cologne
Have you forgotten who invented the mass bombing of civilians as a terror weapon
Your beloved Germany during the Spanish Civil War, not even their war just practice for the real thing
The current state of the world is down to Hitler and Germany, no one else

 

Sorry but what kind of rubbish is this with 'Your beloved Germany' ? I just happen to live here that is all !!!! I have never defended any actions of Germany from this period and never will - but Germany is not responsible for everything that has happened since then. Try contributing something sensible instead of this !!

 

Russia invaded 15 other republics to create the USSR as well as a dozen or more countries now in eastern Europe under the protection of NATO which is paid for largely by America. That leaves out Cuba, several other Asian countries including Afghanistan, many African countries where their contribution was much the same as the US and also central and south America.
And no need to abuse Duggie - that is the kind of posting that prevents others contributing here. His point is that Germany used mass bombings in Spain. As he does not contribute massively on here you might have forgiven him for associating you with Germany if only for your choice of name.
Now it has just turned into a my dad is bigger than your dad this discussion has really lost its way.
You have an irrational dislike of America due to your unusual political beliefs. We can all respect that even if we do not agree.
America has done some bad things but its overall contribution to the world in innovation, technology and peace - yes peace - for millions is immense.
That was my final word on the subject so now you may choose your own summing up.

 

The reaction to Duggie was rather ill thought out I agree. However I do not think that I need to 'answer' for my location - I do not presume that because a poster lives in a particular location that they necessarily love it there, or identify with it. My user name simply gives people the information of 'where I am', nothing else. As a matter of fact I chose it to emphasize the locality, and deliberately avoided a national reference - I mean how would Old German Hornet have sounded ? You have made a big mistake in your text Arturo - The borders of the USSR were smaller than those of the Tzarist empire were. Which implies that they gave things back rather than seized them. Actually Poland and Finland had been part of the Tzarist empire but gained their independence with the creation of the USSR. As for the creation of the Warsaw Pact, I have explained that already - most of those countries had declared war on the USSR, and 4 of them had helped the German invasion so a subsequent Soviet occupation was to be expected. But.......the USSR no longer exists, whereas the USA. does and has, actually, doubled it's war expenditure since the disappearance of the USSR. I do not hate anything about American society Arturo - as long as they keep it to themselves. My concern is the 'Western Universalism' which has appeared since the disappearance of the cold war, and the automatic assumption that this is the only 'rational' view of the World - the cats paw of this universalism when all else fails, are the armed forces of the USA.

 

Sorry - I know I said I had finished but your post did make me smile. I talked of Russia not communist Russia which swallowed up its neighbours. I also love the way you bandy the term fascism without giving us your forensic analysis of what it actually is and means (unlike if anyone dares suggest a country is communist when we get the full lecture). Lastly you find ways to defend why communist countries can actually invade others and run them with death to anyone trying to leave yet accuse America when what it has mostly done is to support people who oppose communism. Hey ho - I guess we are all blind to our own prejudice - and I am probably as guilty or more so than others.

 

Er, sorry Arturo, but where have I used the word 'Fascist' ? I think you must be confusing me with some other posters here. I would take the word Fascist to cover the self named Fascist regime of Mussolini, with it's symbol being a bundle of ***gots rather than the Swastika. Basically a movement which wanted to re establish the Roman Empire and which was deeply anti Capitalist - sort of like a highly militarized, intensely nationalistic, form of socialism. Similarly the National Socialism of Germany combined class war with race war and owes a great deal to Marxist theory. So, you will have judged that I do not use these terms lightly because I have problems placing them on a traditional left-right spectrum. I do find it rather misleading to label them as 'far right', and do not want to accept them on the left (even though their roots may be there) and so I tend to avoid the terms altogether.

 

Your post #8472: In the case of Chile, Greece and Brazil it was a case of military help in establishing fascist dictatorships - think that was you