Holgate and Firmino incident !

Maybe but everything needs to be viewed case by case and in that particular situation it was worse than I've seen in a long time!

 

I think it depends how obvious the push is, how he falls, how hard the push is etc. I don't think you can give a single universal decision on every single push. If someone pushed someone headfirst into advertising hoarding and he had a cut on his head and started bleeding, I don't think the decision would be the same as someone just sliding in the hoardings and no harm done.

 

Can see where you coming from but are we then saying the outcome decides the colour of the card
Reverse what you ask to if he goes into the boards and smashes his head and is stretchered off
Both could have happened - the actual result was somewhere in between - prob more towards your example like
Not sure we can give colour of card based on that.
Gerrard got sent off correctly against Utd because of the intent even though he missed the player a few years back.
Holgate shoved him once but then clearly had red mist moment and then shoved him into the boards - I think it’s that action that is the first issue but not the only issue on the night
But that has been done to death

 

Hee hee just typing something similar
Not sure you can use the outcome as the decision making decider though

 

It's not even a question that Holgate's push was a red card for violent conduct.

If you can't interpret the intent of exaggerated physical motions like that you have no place even thinking about commenting on the subsequent behaviour from the players.

 

Hmm exactly, I think refs do let the outcome rule them, at times though. As an example the tackle on De Bruyne recently by Kane was worse than lets say the Shawcross tackle on Ramsey but because of the outcome of each incident and the fact that Ramsey broke his leg and De Bruyne didn't meant the ref was less likely to give a card even if the tackle was worse.

 

Why not? The facts of an incident determine the charge and sentencing in law

 

The facts we know are after firmino has passed the player he's been pushed. The push was either intentional or wreckless and it caused firmino to fly over the hoarding and potentially cause injury to himself or another person.

That for me would equate to endangering an opponent and should be handled in line with the punishments for any other dangerous play

 

If it was the other way round I'd say exactly the same

 

Any chance you can give us some examples of a similar scenario, ie when a player has used two hands full force into the back of a standing opponent who is already off the pitch and very close to the boards.

 

I also would be interested in this

 

I think for the same example I used
Take the gerrard red against it’s a few years back
He had clearly lost his head and rampaged a bit culminating in a very dangerous rash challenge over the ball (I think - I’m old )
If we were using the outcome as the decider that would now be a yellow or possibly not even a free as nothing happened
Tbh you can appreciate how it can be tough to create these rules

 

The idea of having to play such a pathetically petulant prick in the biggest game of your season would be terrifying

Holgate made 3 pushes that day, 2 gave away goals and the other gave away the remains of his club's dignity

 

Happens all the time don't you know Professor Tobes says so.


Think he's getting shoulder to shoulder nudges where two players are contesting for a ball and one slips and slides into boards mixed up with someone shoving another player in the back after they've lost any chance of getting the ball.

 

That's where intent and wreckless comes into play though. If it's not intentional then it's wreckless

 

Yeah, exactly I think this is the kind of thing that leads to the inconsistency of refs and also the play acting on part of the players to try and ‘win’ a favourable decision.

 

Intention and wreckless are proved by the actions of a person. The outcome or possible outcome decides the punishment

 

What should Firmino be apologising for?

 

So shoving anyone with intent into boards is reckless regardless of outcome and therefore a red. A shoulder barge into the boards is more open to interpretation then ?

 

His reaction was a bit ott
That could have gone any direction - there could have been a seven man punch up. As hard as it may be he needed to control his anger.
Literally about 8months ago I was sent off at the local 5-a-side for doing pretty much that - I got shoved into the boards from behind deliberately and I retaliated
I took my red as I should have let the ref deal with it but lost my ****
Plus the apology shows no hard feelings which the public needs to see cause of how this has gone
Don’t worry though - won’t happen - think mito gonna be right