Some people just don't see eye to eye, not on the same page, that's my opinion of LJ & LT........bit like a few of us on here!!!
From one of your previous comments on another thread, I'd rather listen to a pub drunk entertainer than a preacher. This Cardiff Poster with his "little list of egomaniacs" is a realist who tends to enjoy his football rather than preach about the human failings of players. The "egomaniacs" of the game could include those players I mentioned, Robin Friday, Tony Currie and Stan Bowles, as well as managers such as Cloughie, SAF and even the much criticised Warnock more recently. If he's seen something in Tomlin, then all power to him to bring it out. Taking the moral high ground about how you perceive Warnock manages his teams doesn't mean you're right, nor does it make realistic sense in what has increasingly become a result based business. Whether you like it or not, clubs like Crewe where Dario Gradi brought through some brilliant talent in the 80's and 90's but it hasn't done them any good as a club. Unless you're prepared to see it through till the bitter end, preaching purist policies in what is essentially an entertainment industry is very elitist. In this day and age, time is on no one's side in this sport even with virtually unlimited budgets, management has to be effective and successful - Warnock's style certainly is that despite his detractors. If Tomlin turns out to be an egomaniac after Warnock has had a go at him then fair enough - until then I'll reserve judgement.
I rather like Maverick playmakers. No doubt I would have enjoyed watching Robin Friday. Ego has to be part of that football because these players are risk takers, error is part of their game due to that risk, being accused of laziness is part of their game because you do not want them working like trojans v being creative. Ego drives players to attain that level of skill, ego assists players to relentlessly practice and attempt those little flicks and touches witnessed in Lee Tomlins better games in a BCFC shirt. Tomlin sometimes played like a child wandering wherever he saw fit ... Others would call that a number ten ... Playing as you see fit is ego driven. That character, ego are part of that tapestry to be managed. In Tomlins case his failure at Ashton Gate does not make him a poor player, or a twat like some alledge his failure was down to being a player who quite obviously would not fit the collective system due to his individuality. BCFC football is pragmatic it is about identity in high lines, screen and slide, energy, running, pass and move in the form of simple quick and early, receive retain release and repeat... Lee Tomlin simply did not play that way. BCFC strategy is not elitist, it is modern. Wednesday the top talented Joe Bryan scored a sublime goal. He is a product of that strategy and also the persistence of Lee Johnson taking the view that a player as talented should play, it has been a bumpy ride, but Joe Bryan is all the better for it v not playing. Well done Mr Johnson. Mr Warnock would have binned him.
I accept what you're trying to say and can't really comment on Joe Bryan other than his game and excellent goal he scored against Man U - I just haven't seen enough of him. It was a very good strike from a player who's clearly on top of his game, but I've seen the equal or better from our Aaron Ramsey in the recent past and Joe Ralls at the moment - I don't see that as justification for lauding Johnson's management skills. The assumption that it's Johnson's perseverance with him that has brought him to that may well be correct but to base Johnson's ability as a manager on that is very narrow minded. It's just part of management to focus on the things that are right rather than those that are clearly wrong. Maybe Tomlin was a "wrong 'un" for your club and Johnson did the correct thing by disposing of him. If Warnock has the ability to get the undoubted potential out of Tomlin, wouldn't that then suggest that he has something within his skillsbox that Johnson hasn't? I'm not knocking Johnson here - he's done ever so well this season - just saying there is more to man management than getting rid of players who you can't appear to handle.
roll on Christmas a quick fire 4 or 5 games . I will miss 2 of them, new year... will be in a rf blackspot 28th to 5th Jan reminds me better get the compo's sorted for these dates!
I hope Mr Warnock gets more from Lee Tomlin than BCFC did. It would simply highlight what a waste of his talent and BCFC's money his time at Ashton Gate was. Buying players to fit the shape has to be a primary goal and in this case it turned out wrong. Given his promising initial spell it can be understood, but given how BCFC evolved Lee Tomlin would not fit because he cannot - The entire system would have to change in possession and out. Can't handle no, he was poor, poor with good reason ... High tempo, pressing, lung bursting energy and Lee Tomlin? No way. My posts last season hardly lauded Lee Johnson, but I consistently supported the selection of Joe Bryan who frequently displayed his frailties. It would have been easy, very easy to do otherwise as you point out it is a result driven business and playing Joe Bryan came at times with a cost. But the difference is that Joe Bryan is made and was made for how BCFC play where Lee Tomlin was not. If you are familiar with the FA's future game gumph etc Joe Bryan has that skill set and more to go much further than Ashton Gate. The development behind it is too rare in football.
There's no question the development of future talent is vitally important, no one can deny that. Unfortunately, and I agree it's not ideal, the game today tends to be all about now. The wider issue I'm trying to get across is the ability of managers to bring out latent existing talent - it's there under their noses but many lack the ability to release it. I'm not saying Warnock can do that with Tomlin, but I wouldn't bet against it. In his brief time with us he's already transformed Ken Zohore, revitalised Junior Hoilett and Joe Ralls, and got the best out of ex Rochdale player Mendez-Laing. Sol Bamba plays his heart out for Warnock - that's the measure of the man whatever pre-conceived ideas others have about him.
Lee Tomlin simply did not have the legs, the game speed for Bristol City. Bristol City midfield players are on the young side, they are required to run miles, play fast tempo ... Lee Tomlin did not have those capabilities. Maybe just maybe he could have been used as a deep lying play maker but that would require the XI to be restructured for Lee Tomlin and for him to display a level of mental effort to adhere to it that he did not display previously - Lee Johnson did use covering players, sometimes two in an effort to get Lee Tomlin playing and he would still drop deeper than the defensive midfielders slowing the game to walking speed. I do feel he is not quite good enough to make up for his physical deficiencies at this level, he has to be great at what he does, not just good sometimes, great. I admired watching the Curries, Worthingtons and a Dziekanowski playing for BCFC at Ashton Gate. These players barely exist anymore. That is modern football. Its a case with Lee Tomlin of BCFC being the wrong club and era. I do hope Mr Warnock gets the very best out of him and that a club can harness that ability.
Trundle was more fun that Tomlin imo. Another one who was massively wasted by being misused by us. Plus he gave me one of my favourite ever moments at Ashton Gate so he wins it for me.
a bashing breeze head block against with your top comments on this thread OS NOTHING MORE CAN BE SAID... spot on the man is a genius
Cheers JGF2 - that's all I was saying. Rob's thread is all about Tomlin and that's what we started talking about. There's no doubt the guy has skill but is dogged by a chequered history and fitness issues. The point is whether that can ever be overcome and the guy play to his true ability. It may be that he didn't fit into the Johnson/Bristol City system as Clifton is suggesting, or it may be that Johnson just couldn't find a way to fit him in - either way it was the wrong place for him to be. The "Warnock factor" has crept into this, and whilst I wouldn't expect miracles, it might need something close to that to achieve it. Let's face it, if Tomlin doesn't respond to Warnock's influence, he might as well pack it in because he won't get another chance like this at his age.
I think there was a comment made that Tomlin [ possibly 1 or 2 others] was what we were going to build a team around, At one point it seemed to workout, but a likely chicken and egg scenario was a determining factor... either couldn't get the necessary players in or we did and his " away day travelling during the week!" soured the pot. so he was less fit? A WSC attitude was adopted LEE WAS GIVEN TIME TO put forward his plan, made a number of statements and was instrumental in carrying them out. lets build a house ... in case it rains lets put the roof on first! lets build a house ... we may get a bit wet but must start with the foundations and then the walls and a nice fine roof! OF course LEE T was not part of that, and true to form 3 windows and some interior modifications has the house almost in order ... I think LEE T will do a bit for you over there, WARNOCK doesn't stand much messing about and is a good man to have on your side ... I ask you how did a player like SOL ever get to be a free agent! Warnock pounced almost the minute he got in the door! brought in 3 didn't he? Was I glad to see LEE T go? 1-10 with 10 a positive yes..... likely 4.9
Is he playing every week? Already struggling? Warnock is getting less out of him than Bristol City did.
No - in fact he's been used very little. He's been brought on as a sub for the last 15 mins in half a dozen games that's all, and from memory has only started a couple. Having said that, he put in about 80 mins from the start in our last game against Hull. To be honest Warnock would have got him off earlier if we hadn't had other injuries - he looked knackered after the hour mark. I hope that's got a bit of match fitness into his legs because during the game although not fully up to speed, he looked very influential and could easily have bagged a couple of goals. He was very unlucky to see some of his strikes on goal being blocked by Hull defenders who didn't even know where the ball was at the time.
So Neil Warnock cant get him fit. He was very unlucky to see some of his strikes on goal being blocked that's not being sharp enough for this level. Knackered. Not up to full speed.That is not luck. Sounds like a player who is not focussed 100% this. BCFC went along with that long enough. Seriously no way does that fit into what Bristol City now do.
You could well be right in general but your analysis of what I said is off the mark. A defender getting his body in the way of a fine strike is nothing to do with the player making the strike being unfit - it is very often pure luck and chance. Knackered and not up to speed - that's a fair assessment of mine and something you quickly took up on, and of course it's not luck. To say "Warnock can't get him fit" is over simplifying the matter. A player will only get fit if he wants to - it's finally down to him no matter what anyone else does. I'm not questioning his time with you and the fact that he doesn't fit your new found ethos. The guy has probably been his own worst enemy, but there's half a season to go yet and I wouldn't bet against him having a big influence over the next 4 months. We've done quite well without him so far - it's up to him if he wants to be part of it.
the coach fella on here might point out that luck is an uncontrollable so what Tomlin does is is not luck its not being fit, match fit sharp or not good enough. Its sounds as if Johnson actually got more out him than Warnock has. He was half decent for a short time and a starter under Johnson. Warnock can't find a way to fit him in so it seems he does not have the ability to bring out the latent quality under his nose with his skillbox!!!!
The "coach fella" on here talks a lot of sense - you just appear to repeat it. Incidentally, Tomlin was put on as a sub with 15 minutes to go and then taken back off by Warnock. He didn't appear to be injured so we'll find out later what that was all about.
