and as i have continually pointed out, i have never maintained that moore's argument has convinced the medical community of Islam, truth or otherwise That is just an assumption, that you have made and a re persisting with, for reasons best known to you moores work on embryology is accepted and used by the medical community today. work that he,Moore, found already existed, leading to him, moore, becoming a muslim. So if the foremost expert believes it exists, there must be some truth in it surely? greeks knew huh? what took every one else so long?
maybe it is time to give up that is not the whole point of the surah, the surah is talking about certain phenomena that will take place, there is no timespan/limit. although these things are discussed elsewhere these phenomena were inconcievable due to the beliefs or 'science' of the time. they were inconcievable until science proved that in fact stars do die, making the quranic death of stars possible how is it your not getting that. quran says stars will/do die, science/people say ridiculous, science discovers stars die. as for the day of judgement, this was always 'nigh' form the day the earth and everything on it was created. and as i say the fact that we now know stars do indeed die COULD mean its close
it was at one point yes. now i speak multiple languages thankyou for your input I see your location is delhi, are you 'eric' from 3?
I thought it may be. You're welcome. No, sorry. Have you worked out the definitions of and relationship between the words creation, created and creator yet?
And there you have it. He CAN grasp it. Now tell me how it is possible for the Universe to be a creation that proves the existence of the creator.
oh i see, why didnt you just say the bit you quoted was a response to somebody else, it explains why your head hurt, you didnt read the rest without going into the last 40 pages because NOTHING is CREATED without a CREATOR unless you can name something?
I still don't know quite what you mean by "nothing is created by a creator". That is what I've just said. BUT You are describing the Universe as a 'creation', which itself infers a creator by necessity, and then saying THAT PROVES the existence of the creator. This is circular reasoning.
sorry mate thats nothing is created WITHOUT a creator, not BY I think i see your confusion regarding the 'circular reasoning' howver as i said i was responding to some one, who on one hand was saying, in effect, that no creator is needed for things to be created yet was then saying how is something without a creator created now thats giving me a headache coming in half way, or more, into the conversation has created the confusion methinks
I reside beyond the alley from a abbey, and i've in fact been tutted at by abbeygoers for cutting a apache T shirt. because the abbey is protestant, i was rather suprised.
I think religion is bullshit, but we cannot know for sure whether there isn't a god or not. I'm an Atheist and don't believe in God or any particular God, but i'm not going to say there definitely isn't.
One question that religious types can never fully answer is this: If there is indeed a benign, all-powerful god, why is life so **** for so many millions of people around the world? One rather feeble answer which is often offered is the old "free will" chestnut, which still doesn't explain why innocent babies are born to a life of misery. I'd like an answer from one of the religious advocates, and not one that relies on rhetoric and scriptural jargon, an actual answer. Please
You've either misread my comment or you're intentionally dodging the question. You've also failed to address my point about your argument being an argument from authority fallacy. I didn't suggest that you'd claimed that Moore's argument had convinced the medical community that Islam was true. I asked you why it hadn't, if the argument was so persuasive. Are you actually doubting that the Greeks knew that the world wasn't flat?
You're just completely and utterly wrong on this point. It's indisputable that the surah is talking about the death or dimming of stars being a portent for judgement day, as it explicitly states as much. If it were to happen all the time, then it wouldn't be worth anything as a sign. You're just unable to accept that you're wrong, frankly. The stars that we see dying would have actually died before the Quran was written, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.
I didn't say that no creator was needed for things to be created. I said that there was no evidence of anything ever being created from nothing, so a creator is unnecessary. Again, if everything needs to have been created by a creator, then what created god?
PNP, I think you're barking up the wrong tree mate. If someone well and truly believes in a magical sky wizard, there's usually no point ratinalising with them.
The thing is though JJS, the point about the stars dying claim doesn't even have anything to do with theism. It has no effect on whether or not you believe that Islam is true, yet he's clearly just closed his mind to any and every criticism of even the most outlandish claims by apologists. Sad, really.
These people will use anything to support their assertions, but will ignore anything that undermines them.
That's exactly my point, though. The most honest answer that we can have when confronted with a problem that we can't answer is to just admit it. "We don't know" is better than making something up, as it allows you to progress. I meant that the person that sent you the email may have been either paranoid or intentionally sewing disinformation. What better way to stop Muslims from looking at a website, than to say that it's run by Jews who are intentionally trying to lead you away from the truth? I'm loathe to get into a debate about the pros and cons of the Israel/Palestine situation, as I think that there's fault on all sides. From an atheists perspective though, this is another example of religion being used to cause mayhem. Would I be right in thinking that the Quran is generally positive about the Jews, while the Hadith are generally quite negative? I guess it's about individuals and organisations cherry picking the bits that suit their agendas.
Sorry, I wasn't talking about you specifically. You'd accept that at least most religions aren't true, wouldn't you? That's what I meant by making stuff up. If people didn't know how something worked (thunder & lightning), then they'd just use a god claim to justify it (Thor hurling bolts from his chariot). That actually leads to a defence of the site by those that run it, SNIAW! He claims that they're Christian and that the Jewish run thing is a way of stopping Muslims from accessing the site, which is what I'd suggested. Even if the site was run by Jews trying to mislead people, then each claim could still be examined and refuted. Considering the wealth and power of countries like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, don't you think that they could have done something about this, if they really wanted to?
