Clearly untrue. "What medical books accept Moore's claims that the Quran has divine knowledge of human embryology? This should be good." Still no answer, either. You've done it again. I've clearly refuted what you've claimed, so you just say that I've misunderstood, which clearly isn't true. You're just unable to accept any criticism or clear fault in the Quran, as you've admitted that you've basically based your life around it. You simply won't accept any points made that contradict what you've set your mind to.
can you explain to me where i have said that medical books accept/deny moores claim that the quran has divine knowledge of human embryology? what i said was The medical community accept moore's finding. I dont know the entire medical communities views on his religious beliefs are moore's findings, as in how an embroyo develops, which i explained moore found before he became muslim or found it was in the quran you are doing that play thing again, or simply are not/ cannot read How have you refuted anything? by saying 'i dont accept that'? I have never hidden/exposed what my faith is. I was asked and i responded, i also said that it was science that lead me to the point where i am and the final phrase smells of tit for tat. in your words poor effort
I'll go back to the death of the stars point, as it's not inherently damaging to your faith to accept my point, if you can see the truth of it. The whole passage is clearly talking about the coming of judgement day. 77:10 says, "When the mountains are scattered (to the winds) as dust", for example. It's not talking about things that happen during normal existence, so it's clearly not an insight into stars dying in general terms. It's about extraordinary circumstances. The Muslim Access site actually translates the passage as, "Then when the stars become dim", too. This would suggest that the claim for divine knowledge of the destruction of stars is extremely weak, at best.
You see that is where you are wrong. You do not know without doubt that my questions would be answered. It may have answered yours but you were raised differently to me. I do feel though that I am lucky enough to be born to good parents, that did not feel the need to indoctrinate me into a system.... yes! system, to live by.
I didn't say that you'd made that claim. My point is, that Moore's claims of divine insight in the Quran in relation to embryology haven't been accepted by the wider scientific community. Why do you believe this is?
I will post the full paragraph and let see if you find the problem with th ebit you 'pounced' on. i left a clue The Koran mentions the 'death of stars' (Koran 77:7-8). Astronomers including Dr. Patterson of Southwest Missouri State are surprised at finding this information in the Koran. They know that at the time of Muhammad, people believed that once a thing was formed, it was permanent. The Koran is very accurate when it mentions dying stars. Our own sun is a dying star
Actually my initial point was more about disputing your argument that there is no complusion or force used in religion. The fact that apostasy is considered a death sentence within circles of Islam is certain and is therefore a major tool of complusion within religion. Out of interest try typing "death penalty for apostasy" into google. On the first page alone there are numerous articles many of which give different opinions and all quoting the Quran at some stage. The fact is that Islamic scholars much more schooled in the subject than you or I cannot agree on the subject so I am not going to venture an opinion. What is true however, is that some do think apostasy carries a death sentance and it is used as a tool of fear and subjugation. As are honour killings which even happen in the UK and other western countries. The law of the land is irrelevant where these matters are concerned. As for the rest we will have to agree to disagree. I see it as pointless to continue because you base all your arguments on a book which I consider to be a work of fiction. Beating my head against a brick wall is not a useful use of my time. I am glad though that your faith gives you what you need to live a happy life. I have to say that you have handled yourself very well in this debate single handedly against a number of opponents, whilst always keeping your temper and remaining polite throughout. I apologise if I have come over aggresively (I probably have, the frustration of religious debate does that to me ). Anyway signing of for the night. Keep the faith!!
I believe I answered that and i quote 'The medical community accept moore's finding. I dont know the entire medical communities views on his religious beliefs are' do you know of anyone from the medical community that says either way?
You've missed the point. Again. I'm going to guess that the people of that time thought that mountains were pretty permanent, too. It's talking about judgement day, not the normal way of things. You also ignored the alternative Islamic translation.
The medical community don't include the words, "as foretold in the Quran", when they mention his embryonic studies, do they? If you go to a medical textbook, that's not going to be in there, is it?
tbh i am actually wondering what the point is? re mountains, read the bit about the mountains I think you are missing the point. The issue is not one of whether it speaks of judgment day or otherwise The point is that it spoke about the dying of stars when it was inconceivable to say such things not only that but science since found/says that stars die. making it possible that what it says can/does/may happen for centuries people disputed this and threw up argument after argument. time and science has silenced those also there are 2 discussions here, is quran man made/written and quran v science My assertion has been that science imo, proves quran
have never suggested otherwise what i have said is that the process was in the quran 1400 years ago, science discovered it recently as stated by the founder, whose book , without the 'as foretold in the quran' or any mention of it, is used today in modern medical books
The whole of surah 77 is talking about judgement day. The events described in it as portents (destruction of mountains and stars, for example) are supposed to be things that don't happen normally. If they did, then they would have no value as signs for the coming day. I'd suggest that this is evidence against any divine knowledge guiding the Quran, as stars do die and judgement day doesn't follow. At the very least though, you'd have to accept that it's not evidence that points in favour of divine knowledge.
If the process was accurately described within the Quran, then why did it take 1400 years for someone to discover this knowledge? Surely somebody could have just read the Quran and checked to see whether it was true or not? The study of anatomy was well established by then.
as i said before, the instruments were not there to prove either way. There were attempts/arguments etc, as there have been with many other things the studyt of anatomy being established or not is not the issue here. for example if I take one person you quoted earlier, Galen, his works were translated into arabic but 200 years after muhammad. and remember muhammad was illiterate Also established doesnt mean correct. There was a time it was established the earth was flat. we know now it wasnt. even though the quranic evidence fits the 'like an ostrich egg' approach Moore was/is without a doubt the founding 'father' of the current established process. An expert if you will. for him to then admit it was already done, is a in itself unbelieveable. and you will excuse me if i accept his (the founder/creators if you will) word over yours
I havent suggested otherwise. what i have said is that it was inconceivable at the time yet now we know stars do die, our sun is a star and it is dying. as for signs for the coming day, well maybe that is why we have established it now, maybe that is why its taken so long I think my point was that if you take muhammad, the place, the time period etc then the quran (as some of the scientists quoted suggest) could not have been anything but divine knowledge, as there is/was no waying of knowing what the quran says 1400 years ago. you can argue semantics, for example the embroyological process is not in 'medical terms' but then the quran is not just for doctors etc
Argument from authority. As I've already pointed out, Moore's argument doesn't seem to have convinced most of the medical community of the truth of Islam, so if you're going to go down that route, then I'd suggest that you're heavily outvoted. The Greeks knew that the world wasn't flat. They'd estimated the circumference of the earth in 240 BC.
How on earth have you missed the point again? Mountains being turned to dust was also inconceivable at the time. That's the whole point of the surah. Inconceivable events, heralding the day of judgement. These events are not supposed to be things that happen, unless the day of judgement is nigh. Honestly, if you don't get it this time, then I give up.
