So the Torah and Qu'ran were actually written and delived by Jehovah and Allah themselves where they? Funny that I thought they spoke through prophets and wise men who told other people and they were eventually written down. You obviously have a different definition of heresay to me! Sorry I missed that answer out. Yes Pakistan or Bangladesh are good examples. Frankly I don't care whether they are mixing up the worst of Indian tradition with Islam. The end result is the murder of innocents in the name of religion. Only apologists of the atrocity like you would make the distinction. As for the other points; a sensible debate can only be had if A) the tone is not aggressive - I am in opposition to your views and many of the bad pracitices of religion. If that comes across as aggresive then I apologise. But I am not going to water down the truth to avoid hurting the feelings of the religious. Anymore than the religious refrain from scaring and upsetting young children with the concept of hell. Probably the most aggressive debating tool I have yet to come across. B) preconcieved ideas are left out - Religious belief is the best example of a preconcieved idea known to man and it doesn't allow for facts or counter arguments to get in the way. How can you possibly use that argument, go back and read your posts! C) it is 2 way process - It is and you have failed to answer many of my questions/observations, yet pick me up on my first. Works both ways as you say!
and there in lies the issue. If you come in with the view 'we are not going to agree...' then it is a pointless excercise my blood pressure is fine, i have no issues with questioning I also said that if the challenge within the quran is taken up and done, then i will accept the views of those that do i wonder why no one in 1400 years has not done so?
Out of curiosity's sake, what is the challenge presented in the Qu'Ran? I'd imagine it would be to try and live life as well and fairly as possible, which i try to acheive anyway.
not true, i have used them when required. as i have posted the reference to the surah's. If you wanted the whole surah you should have said. for me the number is sufficient I never claimed that the medical community widely accepted it, I have continuously said that moore discovered something which is used today, he then found it was already there in the quran. sorry but you reaching a conclusion is not my fault. you havent commented on his actual work, which is my point, instead have tried to create an argument where there isnt one, and, imo, purposefully using word play to look clever. i have no qualms with people accepting/not accepting/laughing etc at my point of view, as i said there is no compulsion in faith/belief see the problem here is a typical one. you want answers to your questions, whilst avoiding or skirting around mine there is a lot of words in your posts but very little substance. 'I dont accept that' and the like. It may suprise you but that is not a counter argument/response I think it is clear that your mind is 'made up' as in no matter what it would be a 'dent to your honour' or whatever, to acknowledge or accept what i say whereas i have tried to understand your viewpoint and have countered (maybe not well on occassion) but have nonetheless offered an opinion
thefanwithnoname I need a serious answer here. Does religion give your life direction, and does it help you through when the chips are down? I'm asking as a peer, not an aetheist, i'm not going to insult your answer, i'm going to have an open mind.
In a nutshell, and bearing in mind these are now my words, it asking you to provide a verse like it. using th eflow style etc that the quran follows It also asks for the finding of a contradiction, basically as i say that is in my words and in a nutshell
honestly? It virtually dictates my every moment, is the honest answer i wasnt always 'religious' though
I didn't say that you claimed that the medical community widely accepted Moore's religious claims, as they clearly don't. I asked you why they don't. Again, you're completely missing the point, probably intentionally. And again you've claimed that I'm not refuting any of your points, where I clearly have, time and again. Whenever I have, you just ignore what I've said and avoid the whole question entirely. For example, I pointed out that the Quran says that the universe was formed from smoke, which you've chosen to interpret as gaseous material, as it suits your claim. It not the most accurate translation of the word, by any means, but it's the one that most suits what we know now. The same is true when talking about the expansion of the universe, where it was always taken to mean vastness, prior to scientific advances. You're clearly the one playing with words here. The death of stars is clearly a reference to the end of time and the day of judgement. This is clear is you read the entire surah in context. It doesn't refer to stars dying during our normal existence.
When religious texts talk about mythical creatures, such as the Quran's mentions of jinn (genies) or the Bible's mention of dragons and unicorns, I find that it undermines their credibility somewhat. Theists generally try to avoid including quotes that mention these creatures, in my experience.
ok, now i am struggling to understand what you are on about. The reason i asked you the initial question, re apostasy, was as this seem to be your main assertion. The other questions were also relevant but lower down. I wanted us to start on a similar understanding, the issue of apostasy and death is often raised without basis/foundation The books were 'delivered to prophets' however some have changed their meanings over time to suit the populas 'name of religion' doesnt mean religion though does it? that being my point. the countries that are 'islamic' have anti islamic constitutions so are they islamic. I want you to be straightforward and honest, that is the best way to debate, however there must be a basis to your argument. To be aggressive on being asked to clarify is not the way to debate preconcieved ideas as in 'i believe x so it is treu' without basis or foundation. You asked about apostasy and death. I quoted numbers to the verses where apostasy is mentioned in the quran but no punishmnet. you cannot accept that nor provide evidence to the contrary, how can we continue? I picked you on your first, as your assertion was wrong. surely that is the natural process? and i asked you to explain, which is surely the right way?
not really. the Jinns are mentioned in the quran in many places jinns and genies are like chalk and cheese. as i say what suits
The word genie is a corruption of the word jinn. I'm not suggesting that you think the genie of Aladdin's lamp is real, but you presumably do believe in jinn.
No your assertion was different if you look back, i could quote you but there is no point The medical community accept moore's finding. I dont know the entire medical communities views on his religious beliefs are I have answered most of your questions, or at least tried. if i have missed them it is unintentional but will be happy to answer i didnt say you are not refuting my points, i am saying you are refuting them with 'no it isnt' or such answers I suggest you read the 'smoke' bit again. and the expansion of the universe. even look up a quran with an english commentary and you have missed the point with the dying stars too again no actual insight or argument, more 'no it isnt'
I have never read the Qu'ran and never read the Bible. I don't need to. I live my life peacefully and uphold the values that my parents had shown me. No religion needed, just human/natural. I do though believe that religion was invented to keep the masses happy, with the promise of heaven when you die. I have no problem with people that have so called faith, but would question why would you believe in something that cannot, and will never be, proven. Is your god also relevant for non humans. If not why? If so, be careful where you tread you may kill one of your god's creations.
Yes as i said the jinns are mentioned many times yes i accept/believe in/of Jinn however your use of the word genie actually affirms/confirms what i have been saying no substance, play on words, and pick and choose, verging on mockery
