Then frustrations understandable. Maybe this coming on as super sub in desperate times is what's knocking his confidence.
I think he got the moans of the fans for the collective team effort at that point hoping in all hopes he was going to turn a game in such a short time saying that Atsu has a habbit of hitting the man with the ball when trying to get past him
Yeh I think if Murphy had a full game on that pitch he might not be too far off the level of Atsu, just not seen enough to say he can match him on speed which, for all Atsu's inability to provide end product, gives us the dimension to counter attack
Murphy managed in just 7 minutes to give the ball away three times in dangerous positions. I'd be petrified if he started a match.
The pressure is completely different though, I saw him come on against Spurs, confidently spin his man and create a pretty decent chance. There's a player in there, just don't think its going to come out in front of a crowd baying for a goal with 7 minutes to make an impression. Remember reading a Norwich fan saying he's no super sub. Can't we try him out to start at home then whack Atsu on for 2nd half? The pace would destroy a team by that point.
Well we do have to do something different, that's for sure. It was another game where Atsu perhaps could have contributed something more than he did. Can't really drop Ritchie, so I'd be happy to see Murphy come in, but the main issue in my book is through the middle, I think the balance is all wrong as I said elsewhere.
Yeah I read that and get the point, don't see why we can't try either of Ritchie or Murphy there for a punt. Ritchie's getting more attention on the wing and has found it harder to have an affect on the game lately. He's got a dangerous shot, can create space and will track back, the exact AM Rafa needs.
No formations do matter. But that isn't the reason we got pummelled 2nd half. Unfortunately we couldn't maintain the intensity of the first half. Also when you don't take your chances, you breathe confidence into the opposition. They up their intensity. Indeed there was an argument for dropping into the old formation earlier to deal with what happened (i.e. bodies behind the ball). I too don't think Mitrovic is the saviour. That isn't the point at all and what some seem to be missing is Joselu is not working at all. That being the case, what harm can trying Gayle or Mitrovic do? I just don't get the theory that if something isn't working, you just ostrich it and carry on. I find that a fairly bizarre approach to problem solving. You say he won't make it better so you are acknowledging it currently isn't working. So rather than find out if it works better by trying it, you just want to go off the very few minutes Rafa has afforded him over the last 2 years? Surely there is value in at least trying it. If it doesn't work I fail to see what you've lost.
Not the case though mate, if I say Neymar won't improve City that doesn't mean I think it isn't working it's quite the opposite. I know I'm pissing everyone off with my broken record bullshit but what can fail is the system. I don't expect us to win every game with it, therefore I don't see a 1-0 loss as some meaning we need deep changes because the fact is I think we'd have done better keeping the 451. As you say yourself, if the chances aren't finished then a 442 is ****ed once the team goes onto the back-foot. I'm not saying I'm right but I think with a 451 we tend to grow into the game. This team doesn't have the intensity to keep that attack for 90 mins at all. Then perhaps it's more likely we're the team attacking in the last 10 rather than them. I though about 38 mins in it was too late to change. As soon as we were on the defensive against a team in relegation places, at home with a crowd who got way too expectant of the win, a switch to 451 might have sent it further downhill. I know but by that that logic we should also throw Saivet and Haidara in because they've barely had minutes. I get your point and I think he will see game time soon, if only for the fact its become such a bone of contention for our fan-base. For me though, until I see something off Mitro that doesn't consequently end in a ban, I will always view his risks over potentials. Saying Benitez is ostriching it seems unfair the game after he went 442 and started Gayle for the first time in ages. We appear to all accept Benitez has ****e striking options, but then bemoan his focus on defensive aspects. We've got a better defence now than I think I've seen us have in this league, yet have probably the ****test team over that period. IF Mitro is being kept out over a belief he'll sacrifice that positive, then i get the reasoning. ****ed if I know though
Been saying this for ages - think moving Ritchie to the No10 slot and Murphy out wide would solve a lot of problems You'd get the same industry/cover that Perez gives but with way more going forward Think at the minute I'd like to go for (assuming everyone fit) Elliott Mbemba/Clark Lascelles Lejeune Yedlin Shelvey Merino Atsu Ritchie Murphy Gayle/Mitro
I'm not on about formations though. I don't care if we play 442, 433, 451, 343 etc etc. Of course I have a preference which is 343 but I can accept whichever way Benitez wants to deploy what he has at his disposal. He thought 442 was the way to go and I don't think he was proved wrong. If the chances are finished then nobody is questioning that decision. Equally his 451 has both worked and failed this season. It is down to putting the ball in the back of the net and stopping it going in your own when it is simplified. Formations matter but any of them can work at any level of football with the right execution. 442 was ridiculed as old fashioned and impossible to deploy now. The Mike Bassett reference is commonly used. Then lowly Leicester put that myth to bed and made all those comments look hollow - of course that was then a one off or freak of nature. I'm all for Benitez doing what he thinks is necessary on a game by game basis formation wise because I think its rubbish to suggest any formation is wrong. Pick a formation (within reason) and I can point to a recent example of success. It is about personnel where Benitez is burying his head a bit. Joselu is not performing as a striker. He has two other strikers chomping at the bit for a go. Give one or both of them a run. There is zero to lose. Mitro or Gayle isn't going to suddenly see the 451 not stay in the game. Unless we are pedalling the myth that Joselu is great at hold up play and bringing others into the game? I mean the one thing he does better than Mitrovic and Gayle is close people down in a controlled way. Mitrovic is a funny one because he has shot himself in the foot by not behaving himself earlier in the season. The West Ham incident clearly pissed off Benitez as he has barely seen the light of day since. There comes a time when a manager has to get over that for the good of the team though. I think Gayle and Mitrovic are better than Joselu and will do a better job in a 442, 452, 433 or whatever formation someone wants to dream up. There is no deep rooted problem. We are doing ok for a promoted side and Benitez deserves great credit this season in my opinion. I just think he can do better again if he puts his ego to one side. I don't know how Saivet or Haidara is comparable. We have better players in their roles?
Get you with this formation business but that all sounds well when Chelsea or Arsenal switch out to a 352, they have enough players to keep that effective, we don't. So, could you get me a 352 formation that would work with our team that you think would be as effective as 451? Genuine question because I love a good 352. Of course i agree any formation works in theory, but it holds importance based on the players at your disposal. I love 4312 aswell, imagine our team playing that like, we haven't got a pivotal AM. I think we're on either side of the coin there; you say scoring matters, I say putting two up top when none of our strikers can score matters. Let's call the whole thing off. Yeah fair enough, I admit being pretty pissed that Shelves has ended up back in the team (pretty much 2 for 2 on idiocy under Benitez) but I've justified that by realising, as **** as he is, he's far superior to frigging Colback or other options. Mitro is not far superior. If you were a manager and you saw everyday what a ****ing nutjob this guy is, you'd probably be put off whacking him in so I don't think it's all about ego. He nearly injured Gayle about 8 times last season and that was just celebrating! I'd like to find the stats on all that because I wouldn't mind seeing what the **** Josse brings to the attack, it does appear little at times. If it's about personnel though, I genuinely don't believe we would have achieved as positive results overall we have now by swapping him out for Mitro. Either way moving forward I'm sure he'll get time soon, the crowd is just going to demand it every match until it happens. I'll happily come on here and concede I was wrong if It's an improvement, just don't think a guy who used to miss a host of chances is going to improve the attack anymore than those other guys missing a host of chances. I can't stop seeing Mitro's risk over his potential currently.
Quite like the look of that mate. Yeah I remember you saying it but wasn't so sure. The more I see of Ritchie though the more I believe he could switch to that role easy. Plus he's getting marked out of games something chronic, AM gives him more options to create space. Fair enough crosses will be less effective, but we were hardly doing much with them anyways! OBVIOUSLY though, I'd pick Gayle over Mitro
The short answer is no which is why I don't mind Rafa deploying whatever formation he sees fit.We don't actually have the players to deploy a 451 but we do anyway though. We don't have that natural No.10 which is why Perez is used. I don't think we need two up front - I've tried to say this a lot of different ways. What I want is Gayle or Mitrovic to be given a 6 or 7 game run like Joselu has as the lone striker. Or Mitrovic and Gayle to be given a go up top like Joselu and Gayle were. For ****s and giggles though: 352 GK Elliot CB Mbemba/Lejeunes CB Lascelles CB Clark RWB Yedlin LWB Atsu CM Shelvey CM Merino AM Ritchie CF Mitrovic CF Gayle 343 GK Eliott CB Mbemba/Lejeunes CB Lascelles CB Clark RWB Yedlin CM Hayden CM Merino LWB Atsu AM Ritchie AM Perez CF Mitrovic The problem full stop is Joselu for me. The best reason I have seen people come up with is his defensive work. So the guy charged with being our main goal threat is picked for his defensive work? Its an interesting approach but not a sustainable one for me. Sooner or later that guy needs to put the ball in the net or those tight games will go against you. I can't comment on what we'd have achieved with Gayle or Mitrovic in the team. Nobody can as we haven't seen it. We can guess and have opinions but at some point you have to actually play them and find out. I am not saying it is the answer, I am saying it is a potential improvement to an issue which I think everyone would acknowledge is hurting us. What are we losing by trying? What I think we may see is Benitez continuing to use Mitrovic for odd games. I'm sure unless he sets the world alight we'll then get the naysayers saying point proven. It wouldn't prove jack as he'd need a run like Joselu got. I think its all pretty mute anyway as I don't think Benitez will use him. He has burnt his bridges with his temperament problems. It reminds me of the Crouch situation all those years ago in a different way. He would do great for Rafa but then just get dropped. Rafa had him pigeon holed and that was the end of it. You just have to accept some managers don't like certain players for certain roles in a squad. If I was Mitrovic I'd be handing in a transfer request in January and get myself away. You can't change a guy like Benitez mind regardless what you do, he is incredibly stubborn. He is not alone. Look at how Conte reacts when players don't act exactly how he wants.
I'm not worried about formations, its more the player choices for match day squads. Manquillo, Perez and Joselu aren't the best in their positions and quite frankly aren't good enough but get selected nearly every game and I've been very vocal in my support for Perez but he isn't cutting it atm (do think he is better as a second striker than an AM though). Clark/Mbemba > Manquillo Mitro > Joselu (goals per game convince me of that 2/2 or 2/9) Shelvey/Ritchie in the hole > Perez
Atsu at LWB!? He's got no defensive qualities though! Like I said what we CAN lose is Mitro's head, that is an unavoidable risk in itself once he's on the pitch and seems completely unpredictable. Will stay quiet one game, go batshit crazy the next. I haven't seen him play well enough to say what have we got to lose. For now I'm fairly happy to give Gayle another run but see the point of why Mitro is being deemed a risk. It's fair enough saying your strikers job is to score, but I'd rather not lose a 4-0 game against anyone other than City, the confidence knock would be disastrous and this team is so raging they'd kick the **** out of one another over it. Suddenly defence is shaky and Mitro hasn't improved that attack. IF Joselu contributes to that not happening, and losing that defensive aspect would, then I'm still for it. My opinion is he does, for now. Mitro could come in and do absolute ****, could not. We could say that of a few players not in the team currently. None of them are as potentially crazy though. Yeh I think that's what will happen regardless. I'm reading a Danny Ings loan (WHAT!?) trying to be put in place and we're after Tosun. I do think he will eventually play Mitro if results don't go our way for a couple more games. I won't be unrealistic and feel vindicated over a few minutes here or there when it does happen, but if he gets a start and a full 90, then yeah, I'd expect to see something promising. When you **** up on disciplinary with Benitez, knowing full well it really ****s him off, you should realistically be ready to hit the ground running to atone for your stupid actions. Shelves hasn't and that's pissed me off, but sadly he far outweighs the other options in his area.
They said that about Victor Moses. Good coaches and managers make it a reality. 1 start and full 90 mins? Howay we've watched 810mins of Mr Joselu. Sorry any players needs 5 games to get a run and grip of it. Regardless of discipline. Shelvey is less better than Hayden than Mitrovic is of Joselu in my opinion. So we'll have to disagree on that one. Danny Ings makes me laugh but maybe the options are just terrible. That said this rumour flies around about him every window with clubs in desperate need. We've only lost two games, narrow defeats. I wouldn't panic or throw away the game plan. However sitting on your hands is just as bad. McClaren did that.
You do both realise that you’re destroying the name and reputation of this Forum by having a semi sensible discussion about football!! Damn it, what’s wrong with talking about mustard chinos and strange dreams and tipping? Are you two aliens or something? Or are you just trying to get a ban so Pouchy can join his true love Fred the Oz in oblivion, sorry, the Sunderland Board?
Moses had some pre-existant defensive qualities mind, and if we'd had Kennedy that formation would work far better. Well I dont see him throwing him in for a full 90 mins out of nowhere, it will be a gradual build up and he'll have already seen game time. Realistically though yes, if Mitro knows he's in the bad books and not trusted, he knows himself he'll have to show something worthwhile to justify inclusion. To be honest I wasn't comparing him against Hayden, purely because Merino is out for the foreseeable future. If merino hadn't have been injured, Shelvey would have sat out Bournemouth for sure. It is, but I'm not for comparing McLaren's hand-sitting to Rafa's, McLaren walzed us towards relegation with uninspired displays and ignored all defensive aspects. I think we agree things will have to change if results continue going south, but I'm pretty swell with not seeing Mitro on the pitch now
