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King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes - Ascot 29th July 2017

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by Bostonbob, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    But where to?
     
    #181
  2. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

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    Oh So Sharp could not do it but Ulysses could not play the role of Petoski and Enable will surely be the one to beat in the Arc now – it does not matter what the ground is like at Chantilly so long as she is not drawn in the forest!

    I managed to stop two fillies today but this one was a no bet at the price.
     
    #182
  3. Bustino74

    Bustino74 Thouroughbred Breed Enthusiast

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    Enable's dam Concentric has spent most of her life going to Dansili (also went to his brother and twice to Oasis Dream). There is 2yo colt called Centroid by Dansili and a full-sister yearling to him: so half-sister to Enable. There is however a return to the Sadler's Wells line with the foal, who is a filly by Frankel.

    I'd imagine that Concentric will be sent to another Sadler's Well line stallion: there are enough of them.Nathaniel will get a look in somewhere I'm sure
    Maybe Enable will be sent to Dansili? Dubawi might be interesting..
     
    #183
  4. Doalittle

    Doalittle Well-Known Member

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    She's a class filly. But how the hell did Rain Goddess and Rhodedendron get as close to her as that lot did?
     
    #184
  5. King Shergar

    King Shergar Well-Known Member

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    A good performance by the fillie, and she won easy as I thought she would.

    I'm not convinced the form is as strong as it would appear though. The only 2 high class horses she was up against Jack Hobbs and Highland Reel didn't perform.

    Jack Hobbs has something wrong with him, just as I said he did, all the nonsense about the ground in the POW was just the mug punters buying into the hot hair from the jockey and trainer. There is definitely something not right with that horse.

    Highland Reel just does not go on that ground plain and simply, so what you where left with was Enable smashing a bunch of G2/weak G1 horses. She did do it very nicely though, and is the one to beat in the Arc. Though she was the one to beat long before today's victory.
     
    #185
  6. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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  7. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    Sooner or later you will need to accept that Ulysses is the top older horse in Europe.

    Some performance from Enable to beat such a historic horse in that manner, but might be a different story on fast ground.

    Neither will be winning the Arc.
     
    #187
  8. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

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    I have edited this down to the bits that I am curious to have explained.

    So she won easily as you expected but at the same time you think the form is not strong. So she won easily because everything else underperformed?

    How was she the one to beat in the Arc long before today then?

    Enable went into today’s race rated 120, a mark inferior to three of her ten rivals, because the handicapper has correctly assessed that whilst her two Classic victories were visually impressive, she did not beat anything of merit in either event.

    She is the one to beat in the Arc until such a time as Almanzor makes it back to the racecourse and proves that he still retains the ability that he showed last year (and that the extra 400 metres of the Arc are within his compass).
     
    #188
  9. King Shergar

    King Shergar Well-Known Member

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    The top older horse in Europe would have more than a 33% striker rate in G1 company this season.

    He ran a good race today though, nothing special but he ran with abit of credit.

    He didn't really see out his race if you ask me though, he came challenging quite strongly but didn't see it out to the line.

    It seems to be the story of Ulysses season though, he comes there strongly and then doesn't see out his races well. Same thing happened in the POW, and you could even say the same in the Eclipse, as he looked like he was going to hammer Barney Roy and only just scraped home.

    He seems to be abit of a bridle horse, from my observations.
     
    #189
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  10. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    Hes the classiest animal since Kingman imo.
     
    #190

  11. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

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    Ulysses could be the top rated older middle distance horse in Europe to have raced so far. At the moment, the top older horse in Europe is Ribchester.

    Marengo was an historic horse. In what respect is Ulysses historic?

    Obviously neither is going to win the Arc because a Japanese horse is going to win. <doh>
     
    #191
  12. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    Gosden cashed in his Arc ticket today.

    The Japanese are rubbing their hands.
     
    #192
  13. Doalittle

    Doalittle Well-Known Member

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    Idaho nearly as classy as Kingman.
     
    #193
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  14. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    That was by far the slowest KG&QE for some time. When was the going as slow as it was today. Interestingly the official going was only changed to soft AFTER the KG&QE. Does that mean it was run on GS.

    Highland Reel ran nowhere near his best today. If that was GS today, he ran faster than today's winner when he was beaten by Dartmouth last year over course and distance. If the ground had been on the fast side it would have been a completely different story. Still don't think he would have beaten Enable though.

    Although that was impressive by Enable, the clock would indicate that, in itself, that was not Arc winning form, unless someone can confirm it was definitely soft for the race. But she's proved she acts on any going and I can't see what can beat her in the Arc.
     
    #194
  15. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Of course it was soft. When they came round Swinley Bottom I thought I was watching the Reynoldstown.

    Difficult to translate the form as it was hard work out there BUT the filly would have won on any ground. Top class animal.
     
    #195
  16. ChelseaCOE2012

    ChelseaCOE2012 Well-Known Member

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    Meh timing doesn't really mean nothing, they could of got a quicker one if they wanted but it was so clear frankie eased off.

    On form, will win the Arc at a canter but Arcs never happen like that
     
    #196
  17. beeforsalmon

    beeforsalmon Well-Known Member

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    She's an exceptional filly, we didn't know that until today, but she showed she is make no mistake. I didn't bet anything in the race and just wasn't keen on her at the prices. Her best two performances have come on rain softened ground (the Oaks was softer than the official going, they were kicking up clads of clay like you'd see round Chepstow in December) so I'd go as far as to say if there was much dig in the Lonchamp turf on Arc it'll be an away and gone win. On quick ground I wouldn't be so sure. Her old man relished the soft too.

    You had it pretty much spot on DavidQuinn, fair dos.

    Jack Hobbs looks totally GATG now, big Johnny D fair put plenty away with him talking up the 5 year old a lot more than the filly! These trainers eh <laugh>
     
    #197
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  18. King Shergar

    King Shergar Well-Known Member

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    Well I expected Highland Reel and Jack Hobbs to not show their best form, as I pointed out before the race. Jack Hobbs looked wrong at Ascot in the POW, and I said so before this race. Whilst everyone knows Highland Reel doesn't go on soft.

    The others are not high class G1 horses if you ask me. Ulysses is useful, but he never sees out his races properly for me, and only won a poor G1 at Sandown IMO. I'd be suprised if he wins at G1 level again, in Europe anyways.

    She was the one to beat in the Arc the day she won the Oaks 5 lengths, with the 3rd 11 lengths back. I don't really care what the official ratings say, anyone who didn't rate that win as the best middle distance performance in Europe before today's KG, really needs to give up rating horses. You just needed to watch her run, to know she was the best middle distance horse in Europe even that far back. No need for any nonsensical official ratings to tell you otherwise.

    As far as Almanzor is concerned, first of all like you say he's unproven over 12 furlongs, second of all he's got to prove his fitness and that he retains his ability. Finally both horses have won 3 G1s a piece, but Enables has won all of hers by 4 lengths or more. Almanzor hasn't even won 1 of them by 4. So yeah Enable is the horse to beat in the Arc, regardless of wether Almanzor comes back or not.
     
    #198
  19. Black Caviar

    Black Caviar 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    Enable left the Arc on the Ascot bog today
     
    #199
  20. Davidquinn

    Davidquinn Active Member

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    That deluge beforehand made me more confident on Enable's chances, less so for Ulysses. I think you're right, she's got a high old knee action and looking at that and her breeding I think she's definitely going to thrive best on soft ground. Explains how Rhododendron got as close to her as she did if we say the ground that day was good to soft (either way was definitely soft today and her performance went up another notch). If good to firm today on those performances I think Ulysses would have run her very close if not won. Highland Reel would obviously have performed better but am certain Ulysses has now improved past him. Soft ground Arc and she'll win, any good in the description and might be able to seek some value elsewhere.
     
    #200

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