The Sun was acting like every other rag and will do anything for a story. Never bothers them every day telling lies so no different to every paper. Have some sympathy for Billys view but not on all of it. Police were shyte, corrupt and by giving Dukenfield the gig when he had no experiece signed those death warrants. I believe those gates would have been breached and the tragedy probably teken place but at least police would have been in the clear and we wouldnt have spent 40 years listening to the scousers bleat every ten minutes and make saints of the 96 from VictimPool. Because the police screwed up, tried to cover up and make a complte bollox of things this has dragged on. South Yorks Police should be disbanded!! Hillsboro, Orgreave, Ripper ****up, Cliff Richard, Rotherham child rape...... Not fit for purpose and before anyone questions the ripper bit they had him custody and let him go years before so that another 4 women lost their lives. Oh Dukefield again btw & Bettinson
TBF, I've been in crowd situations like that when I was young in Glasgow. Then the policing got better & they've never allowed it to happen again. And with bigger, drunker crowds to contend with. This was a one-off surge & entirely down to the police negligence, as evidenced by the charges (& SW's ground negligence too). The fans only behaved like that because they were allowed to. Negligently. Ever tried to push back against a crowd? Doesn't matter if alcohol is consumed or not - a crowd pushes unless properly policed. Full stop.
Being complicit to a crime is a crime in itself. It spread inhuman stories fed by the police, with zero evidence, and all to exonerate their actions. The police knew straight away they'd cocked up bigstyle, and the 'getting the stories right' began before they left the ground. The Scum did not check one word of what was fed to them, and rather than cautiously report the input from the police, they sensationalised it. Definitely guilty of complicity. No question about it IMO. If you go back & read their articles, you'll see exactly what I mean.
I understand why you feel like that and I'm no lover of the Sun. Just think criminal acts would be impossible to make stick. Will be hard enough to nail the ones they've charged
Sorry, Billy, but you're obviously not familiar with Root Cause Analysis techniques. A key process is the '5 whys', where you basically question an outcome and find the immediate cause. Next 'why' is to ask why that cause came about, and so on. Normally 5 whys are enough, but if there is more to delve into, you continue until you know the TRUE root cause - or causes. So 'why was that crowd able to advance on the turnstiles?' should be the next outcome to be questioned. And if the answer is 'the police did not police correctly', you then question that, and so on. There have been bigger crowds for many, many preceding years, and in times where there were just as few police, fewer police vehicles, and a whistle & a shout the only means of communication. I have been part of some of these crowds, and at times my feet did not touch the ground for terrifying minutes that seemed like hours - inside & outside the ground! I shall sign off by posting an extract from the Scotsman here (and provide the full link for anyone who wishes to examine further). As far as I'm aware, there were no deaths arising from the estimated 220,000 fans trying to get into Hampden, unless there were a few brave englishmen who died of embarrassment Scotland 3-1 England | 17 April 1937 | British Home Championships | Hampden Park, Glasgow | Attendance: 149,415 The Hampden Roar was in full flow as an astonishing 149,415 crammed into the national stadium to cheer Scotland on to a 3-1 victory over England. The attendance set a new world record, which even today remains a European record for an international match. An estimated 70,000 were left locked outside the ground, and had Hampden been big enough to accommodate them all, perhaps we would have seen an attendance figure that would never have been surpassed. As it happens, the record was eventually beaten during the 1950 World Cup, when a string of games at Rio de Janeiro’s Maracanã welcomed crowds approaching 200,000. Since it was a Scot, Archie McLean, who famously introduced football to the Brazilians, we’ve only ourselves to blame. Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-s-all-time-record-football-attendances-1-4450238
understand your point Mighty ... however, Luton caused your problem by taking all comers on the gate ... Hillsborough was a ticket only affair, issues caused by Liverpool fans trying to gain access ILLEGALLY ... this is the key point, their actions were ILLEGAL ... you don't go to a sold out James Bond opening night at the cinema without a ticket, because it's ILLEGAL to do so ... you don't rock up at ER on a Saturday without a ticket and then try and climb the fences because you'll be arrested ... yes, police actions after the tragedy were wrong, but the world needs to wake up and acknowledge that Liverpool's fans who were trying to gain entry WITHOUT A TICKET were complicit in the murder of their fellow fans who were in the ground LEGALLY Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That is not illegal, Billy. I went to the Glasgow Apollo without a ticket for the Stones and waited with hundreds of others trying to get in. Perfectly legal. The venue was well stewarded and any rush at the door was easily dealt with. They were organised. They anticipated trouble. And this was in 1982. And yes, I did get in. VIP seats too. Humour, being easy to spot in a crowd, & bribery got me the best seats in the house. (Almost) legally. Also, you have to prove intent for their actions to be illegal. They could simply say they wanted to stand outside & take in the atmosphere. Perfectly legal. Proving otherwise is impossible. I agree that it certainly didn't help, btw. Now if you were talking about Heysel ....
Good afternoon from Lake Ohrid, chaps. I'm melting here, even with the aircon on. It's timely though - I've now included aircon in the list of renovations in the house I'm buying.
Billy there was 2,000 Leeds outside Bournemouth the year we won league one in 1989-90 trying to force the gates open.There were plenty in 87 at Hillsborough trying to get in with no tickets as well,police never opened the gates,and that's the only difference.
