I have never said Frankel wouldnt beat Goldy you numbskull.You can read between the lines as you normally do,but i have never stated that. Frankel is a top top horse that would beat Goldy comfortably.The difference between you and i(thank god) is that you say he would "laugh at her","piss all over her" or whatever else you want to say.I use a little bit more diplomacy and respecting her herculean efforts over the past 4 seasons.I say he would beat her "Comfortably".
That's me put in my place. Wasn't meaning to offend Shergar, if you were referring to my very poor attempt at humour.
So manipulating formlines to suggest Immortal Verse could beat Frankel, is a sensible comment to make I'd it, and then questioning Zenyatta by highlighting its his opinion not fact. People can give a view without having to state IMO, any idiot can work out what is opinion and what's fact with the need for your input. A "numbskull" how old are you?
Handbags at midnight. If you really want to know who could beat who in any race all you need to do is refer to my latest post, resurrected from 606. Hopefully you will see it for what it is. It may remind you of the many arguments with a certain ex poster. Couldn't resist digging it out for a laugh.
Excelebration has been rated 126 for his impressive Hungerford victory. See the BHA Blog for more details.
To go back to Zenyatta's original post question you have to say Frankel is extremely good and one of the best milers of the last 50 years. If Cecil says he's the best he's trained you at least have to listen to that (in the heat of the moment the most level-headed trainers say this horse is......only to recant afterwards). But I think Cecil is a good balanced judge and if he thinks that and is correct then Frankel is better than what I think was his best miler before and that was Kris (yes I know many will think there are better horses Cecil trained but Kris like Frankel was a specialist miler: more of that later). The reason I mention Kris is because Mercer who rode him in all his races also rode Brigadier Gerard in all his. Mercer's view of Kris was that over 8f Kris would have been very close to Brigadier Gerard. He then went on to say that BG would have, however, easily beaten Kris over 6f and 10f and so was the better overall horse. I feel that says you have to compare Frankel with Brigadier Gerard. If Frankel actually keeps his 142 Timeform rating it will be the same rating (for what it's worth I agree) that the Brigadier got after his 3yo career (He went on to raise that to 144 as a 4yo). I think Frankel is the best miler since Brigadier Gerard. I find it hard to compare Dubai Millennium or others since with Frankel, as good as they were. Frankel is proving he's beaten a lot of good horses, and some of those horses might have roughed up Dubai Millennium. The issue I have with Frankel and in gauging his worth is that I think he's an out and out 7f - 8f horse. I don't think he'll be anywhere as good over 10f and forget even trying over 12f. Another issue for me is that he only seems to be able to win one way and that's from the front. Brigadier Gerard won any way he had to. His Sussex Stakes victory (one of his best) was absolutely from the front, taking control of the race from the gate. Yet many races he won from behind, usually hitting the front a furlong and a half out. I suppose Brigadier Gerard was a more straightforward horse, and that's a strength. So my view is Frankel does not quite reach the heights of Brigadier Gerard yet and I don't think he will. But he's the same calibre of horse as Sea the Stars and that's saying something: he's right up with best. He's a fabulous horse and putting his head on the block as he does from the start (or at least soon after the start) he's an exciting horse to watch. Maybe I'll be proved wrong and he'll win a hard run mile race in record time, coming from behind. Or he'll win over 10f showing he is a more flexible horse than I currently judge him. However we'll see and I'll repeat what I've said before he just may be the best seven furlong horse ever.
I think Frankel is more tactically versatile than people give him credit for. In fact i think that he will show his absolute best when he is able to sit off a strong pace, and then Queally can press the turbo button 2/1.5 furlongs out. The Guineas performance was clearly intentional because they wanted to use his stride, fearing that if he failed to settle he would blow his chance. The St James' Palace was a cock-up. And in the Sussex, him leading was more by necessity than either choice or design. It must be remembered that he didn't lead during his 2yo year, and didn't in the Greenham either. I think the misconception (in my opinion at least!) arises because his two most memorable performances (the Guineas and the Sussex) were both from the front. In the future, i see no reason why there will not be more improvement to come when he is not required to do his own donkey-work. He is now settling well in his races so i think sitting handy/mid-field, cruising until the 2 furlong pole and then hitting the turbo will see him at his absolute best. I truly believe that if everything goes his way he is capable of an exceptional performance. He has already given us two but i am convinced that we have yet to see the true measure of his ability. The type of performance i am talking about is one that will leave nobody in any doubt that this is the best horse we have ever seen. I also think that he'll get 10f as well. Whether he'll be as good over 10f as he is at a mile is another question altogether.
You may be right Zenyatta and as I love good horses I'll be pleased to see it. However in the races you have mentioned you say he has settled well and that may be so but it may be because he's allowed by Queally to bowl along for the main part. I compared with Brigadier Gerard because he left no doubt in people's minds. He beat Group 1 winners regularly by 5 to 10 lengths from 8 to 10f.
It's very difficult to compare horses from different generations, and it's interesting that Henry Cecil, when interviewed after Frankel's latest win, did not mention Brigadier Gerard when relating to great milers from the past. He brought up Tudor Minstrel and Blushing Groom- intimating that he had not seen the former and that the latter was forefront in his mind as a great miler. How do you evaluate a great horse? To me, it's not only which races he wins but also the strength of his peers. Ultimately however, it has to be a personal view arising from your own judgement. In Frankel's case, the only downside for me is that he has only beaten one really good horse ie. Canford Cliffs. His Classic win in the 2000 Guineas was partially flawed by a very poor field- there's only one horse in the thirteen runner race that's won since; that's Roderic O'Connor, and it doesn't say much for the current three year old generation when the horse that ran third last in the 2000 Guineas can go on to win the Irish equivalent. Also, I should take issue with Bustino's comment that "Frankel has beaten some very good horses." Apart from Canford Cliffs, who are they? Make no mistake, I am not questioning Frankel's quality, nor his right to be rated as one of the great milers, but for me, his racing record does not compare to that of Brigadier Gerard. My personal view is that 7 furlongs is his best distance but, in a sense, that doesn't matter; likewise whether he attempts 10 furlongs or not. He may well beat the current crop at that distance, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be 'great' at that trip. One hell of a horse nonetheless!
Tamerlo I think we agree. I was thinking of Strong Suit and Excelebration: the former was very impressive at Goodwood and the latter is better than people think. I saw Dubai Millennium a couple of times and came away impressed but not with what he beat.
Bustino, yes, Strong Suit and Excelebration are good horses- but nothing more than that. Also, I'm a self-confessed cynic when it comes to the recent generation of "Classic horses." There are just so many inconsistencies in form lines, and no strength in depth to performances. Hence I'm always likely to be wary when people start raving about a particular horse- or one startling performance. Good luck to Frankel. Racing needs its stars, and nothing would please me more than to see him kept in taining next year. A final footnote. What a wonderful patron to racing and Henry Cecil is Khaled Abdullah! I'd love him to run Sea Moon in the Arc, but I just can't see it happening- even though I dashed to back him on Betfair at 30/1 when he hit the furlong pole. He reminded me of Joe Mercer and Provoke all those years ago, and 6/4 for the Leger is stealing money- if he gets to post.
I watched his Sussex Stakes victory again last night, plus the interview with Sir Henry afterwards and he actually said he thinks Frankel is the best horse he has ever seen. Period. Not the best miler. The best horse he has ever seen - yes he mentions Blushing Groom but he also mentions Shergar so he was clearly not just thinking milers. It's true that Frankel has not beaten many top notch horses - Canford Cliffs is the one genuine Group 1 performer he has put to the sword but at the same time he can only beat what is put in front of him. Some people crab him because he only just beat Zoffany but clearly the tactics were somewhat strange that day and I think Sir Henry was right when he said he was "looking around a bit" in front. He looked a lot more grown up and professional at Goodwood and I think we will see more improvement at Ascot. I also think he could sit handy and quicken 2F out but still can't imagine any serious challenger going quick enough for him to sit handy. Whether he is the greatest or not (and one can debate it till the cows come home) for me he is the most exciting flat horse I have seen in 25 years of watching the game. Can't wait for Ascot.
Yes he did OddDog. That is right, which is why I qualified what I said. I too agree he's very exciting, whereas Sea the Stars wasn't so exciting unless you'd had a pile on him.
I think hes surely up there with the best I've seen. Not for his obvious racing record but the manner he dispatches his rivals. I mean his Guinea's win was ridiculous, When will we ever seen something like that again? I've watched his Sussex win over and over and Canford Cliffs throughout didn't look like he was enjoying trying to stay with Frankel and when Tom Queally said go and Frankel took off Canford Cliffs did what an horse does when they don't like something... They stray off. Injury, What a load of b**locks. I think he'll get 10F easily, Tom Queally as struggled to pull him up after some of his races the Sussex for example. I really hope he stays unbeaten this year and to be fair I think its a pretty safe bet he will, What can beat him over 8f in the world at the moment? And I really hope he stays in training as a 4 year old. Look at the races they could attempt with him, Prince of Wales, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Dubai World Cup. He could prove to be what Henry Cecil certainly thinks he is... The Greatest
That's true OddDog. I was/am actually a great fan of Sea the Stars, just wasn't as exciting as Frankel.
