I would say you weren't being very clear. You made it sound they needed to be on a buzzer somewhere telling all and dry i think thats how some of the muslim boys here read it as well. Also i think the way it was wrote before (and i apologise if that wasn't your intention but i had mentioned it) was that it wasn't being actively done now. Putting it forward as you have now makes total sense
You are not just pointing at their stated aim though. You are placing certain emphasis on Muslims Muslims who have been at the worst end of numbers killed
I don't waver from the truth either mate, in reality this isn't a Islamic problem but just a Muslim and West/Allies problem everyone had a hand in this crap and now has spread to the West.. What does a apologist sound like? The only one that actually agrees with you it seems DMD!
I think you misinterpreted what I meant. Or maybe I should have spelt it out more clearly. What I meant by the solution lying with Islam was that because of how these terrorists hide behind, or use your faith as a pretext for their actions, it lies with those who's words carry weight to deny them that shield.
I say what I think. If people agree, fine. If they don't well I'm open to a sensible counter argument. DMD and I have disagreed on plenty.
Here's a comment that'll get spun to buggery, even though all say now, unreservedly, that all deaths, and particularly innocent civilians are tragic.. Your comment sounds like the people opposed to Islam should be the ones shouting allahu akba.
That's one of the way but it sounds like this kid (according to the BBC), did get this guidance from his Imam and family but clearly rejected to them. I'm not saying that means we shouldn't have that as part of the solution but it's not as simple as everyone saying this and it will be all fine and dandy as there are some evil/radicalised people already who will say the opposite and strike a cord with those who are being radicalised. I'm not sure JUST islam as you put it is the total solution (actually i don't think there is a solution short of stopping all muslims from living or moving here but that's not my policy)
You are being extremely disingenuous with this comment. You definitely did label HB as a terrorist apologist and you can't try and absolve yourself of responsibility for it by claiming that because he has a broader world view of terrorism than you do, that he 'sounds' like an apologist to try and justify it. He is right to point out that various states sponsor terrorism, and have done for years, via arming various factions that suit their agendas at the time. And as he said, these groups often then come back to haunt them. This goes back right to the start of groups like Al-Queda that were born out of the US arming and funding the Mujahideen in Afghanistan back in the 70's and 80's when the US was fighting troops from the USSR there. The proliferation of arms that flowed into the middle east from the US and Europe, which is still happening to this day in Syria. The west can't even make up their mind which sides to support there, yet they have sold arms to all factions. I agree with you that there is a big role to play for the Muslim Clerics to try and prevent radicalism within Islam, but that is just one part of this jigsaw and isn't going to solve it alone. As for groups like ISIS, in my opinion, they are maniacs who are beyond the ability for reasonable debate and with them force needs to be met with force. But for the young men being radicalised in Manchester, Birmingham, London, Paris, Munich, Brussels etc, there is a wider debate around the role that disenfranchised young men have in general in society, ensuring that there are opportunities for them to engage with society and not become ostracised. That is not a 'muslim problem' alone, it is society's problem and we all have to have a stake in trying to resolve it.
OK let's forget how it sounded and accept you for what you have said now However it doesn't change what I have been trying to say. Firstly muslims have been out in droves and many are even saying they understand the retaliatory attacks on mosques and individuals But secondly as Muslims we don't identify with certain factions. Let me give you an example, one of the biggest banners at Manchester is from the ahmaddiya association. This group is to Islam what Mormons are to Christians. I have nothing to do with them and don't even consider them Muslims. Reason being they have changed a basic fundamental principle in Islam. A person from this organisation committing an atrocity would get the reaction that the arndale centre attack got from me. As in appalled but no link with the perpetrator
No disengenuity from me. What I said was if you began to sound like an apologist, don't be surprised if you get labelled as such. Once again, you're off on a tangent about causes. That's another subject.
And you're not listening! And rambling off on tangents. What I've said is that the leaders of the faith need to stand up and speak out. Threaten, whatever it takes.
You can't separate the causes from the effects. What 'sounds' like an apologist to you, is to others, somebody who has taken the time to understand the complexity of the various factions and agendas being peddled here. It's nowhere near as black and white as you would like to make out and I'm afraid that over-simplistic view is why things have been left to fester and escalate to the problems we have today.
Nobody is disputing that. What people are trying to get across to you is that the issue runs deeper than simply what Muslim clerics tell their students.
Yes, you can. The causes are being used as a pretext by ISIS for their perverted views. They see this as a religious war against us 'crusaders' a war that they will bring about and win. They will not stop now, unless they are stopped.
I understand what they try to say. It needs senior clerics to teach, rule that this is against all Islamic teachings. We have very little chance of stopping ISIS now, except by force, slowing up or halting their recruitment would be a start, at least.
