Ok then you lot, I'll give it a shot, I want a strong Brexit and I fear Jez will wreck it. The lib dems are wet and labour are finished, although my faith in the Tories is diminished. For Stan and for Stroller, you leftie old fools, Wake up to reality, you stubborn old mules!
This was a political thread now it's 'bout poems instead. I don't know what's worse be it talking in verse or the messages shouted by Ted.
Anyone watching programme on ISIS on C4 tonight - very interesting about where their ideology and background is from....still a bunch of neolithic arseholes though
I've joined this late, on +1, will have to watch again. So far it seems to be Napoleon's fault, got a feeling I've got the wrong end of the stick.
That's a bit of a 350 million pounds on a battle bus kind of slant there Goldie. 100 billion is one figure quoted. 32 billion is another. Either way it's honouring our commitments that we'd already agreed to. Some of those commitments have little to no benefit to us whereas others might be offset against payments due to us. The rest of it as you describe is a soft Brexit, Norway-esque deal. If that is the result of no real negotiation then it doesn't sound terrible. The economy would suffer very little hit as a result. Crippling WTO import and export duties and offering the multi-nationals no access to the EU markets sounds worse than your worst case scenario. Setting up new trade deals with everyone would take years on top of the two years we'd have wasted and I'd suspect even a 100 billion would be peanuts compared to the cost to the UK.
Conservative manifesto: Pledges on social care and immigration 1 hour ago please log in to view this image Image caption The Tories are proposing to tackle the "unfairness" in the care system The Conservatives will promise further measures to curb immigration in their manifesto, the BBC understands. Firms will be asked to pay more to hire migrant workers, who will in turn be asked to pay more to use the NHS. Theresa May will also announce a series of measures to "get to grips" with the rising cost of social care. Winter fuel payments, which pensioners currently get irrespective of need, will be means-tested, with the proceeds going directly to care for the elderly. The prime minister will promise no-one will have to sell their home in their lifetime or that of their surviving partner to fund care. Election campaign: latest updates Is Theresa May a 'Red Tory'? Guide to the parties: Conservatives Who's standing in your area? The manifesto will also include a commitment to end universal free school lunches for infants. There are unconfirmed reports that the "triple lock" tax commitment not to raise income tax, VAT or national insurance, made at the 2015 election, will be ditched and there will be a revised timetable to eliminate the deficit and balance the books by the middle of the next decade. please log in to view this image Image copyright PA The BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg said Mrs May would put forward an "uncompromising" message on immigration, saying high immigration levels can harm community cohesion, and restate her commitment to bringing net migration down to the tens of thousands. The manifesto, which will be published on Thursday, will promise to "bear down on immigration from outside the EU" across all visa routes. The prime minister will commit the government to reducing and controlling immigration from Europe after Brexit and sources say she is "clear this means the end of freedom of movement". She will announce extra costs for employers who choose to hire non-EU immigrants in skilled jobs by doubling the charge known as the Skills Charge. The revenue will go into skills training for UK workers. Non-EU migrants will also have to pay more to use the NHS. The manifesto will also rule out removing students from the immigration statistics. Analysis by Laura Kuenssberg, BBC political editor Don't expect hearts and flowers. Thursday's manifesto will not be presented as a description of a land where milk and honey flows. But rather look for a hard-headed assessment of the country's problems, wrapped up in arguments about why Theresa May is the person to fix them. Against the logic put forward by many of her colleagues, she will stick to a tough message on immigration - UKIP voters who could turn Tory ever in mind. She will present solutions on social care that in one way or another will mean more people have to pay more, and she'll means test some pensioner benefits to do it too. There is a big risk in limiting some free school meal provision. Theresa May wants to be seen as tough, she does not want to be labelled harsh, or cruel. But even before the manifesto is fully published, the Lib Dems have labelled her "the lunch snatcher" - a reference to Mrs Thatcher "milk snatcher" who ended free school milk in the seventies. Read more here. please log in to view this image Image copyright PA The Immigration Skills Charge, which was introduced in April, is levied on companies that employ migrants in skilled areas. It applies to immigrants from outside the European Economic Area and is currently set at £1,000 per employee per year, with a reduced rate of £364 for small or charitable organisations. Under the Conservative proposals, it will double to £2,000 per employee per year. Migration target The plan to stick with the net migration target has caused controversy, with critics saying it will be nearly impossible to meet without doing damage to the economy. Net migration, the difference between people coming to the UK for more than a year and those leaving, stood at 273,000 in the year to last September. It was last below 100,000 in 1997. Who's standing in your area? An editorial in Wednesday's Evening Standard, whose editor is the former Chancellor George Osborne, suggested that in private ministers were dismissive of the target believing it was unrealistic. The article says the target, set by David Cameron when the Tories were in opposition, was "economically illiterate" and it was a "mystery" why Mrs May was persisting with it. 'Hard work' It urged the prime minister to "sweep away this bad policy from the past". Mrs May will say the Conservative manifesto will not shirk the challenges facing the country, whether it be over Brexit or social policy. She will say the ageing population and the growing number of dementia sufferers have put a strain on the care system and the NHS, with too many people facing "high costs and inadequate treatment". Under the Tories' plans, winter fuel payments for all pensioners will come to an end with assistance limited to the least well-off through a means-testing system. At the moment, all pensioners qualify for one-off payments of between £100 and £300 each winter. Successive governments have defended the principle of universal eligibility in the face of criticism that they are a perk for wealthier pensioners who don't need the money. 'Unity of purpose' Theresa May will reject a cap on overall care costs, recommended by an independent commission three years ago, but say no family should see their assets depleted below £100,000 from paying care bills, an increase on the current £23,250 figure. For the first time, the cost of someone's home will be taken into account in the assessment of domiciliary care, as well as residential care, needs and whether they should qualify for state support. The Conservatives say this will raise extra funds and ensure people are cared for them wherever is best. The prime minister, who has been front and centre of her party's campaign, will call for "unity of purpose" as Brexit negotiations begin in earnest, saying the country faces the most "challenging" period in her lifetime. "It is the responsibility of leaders to be straight with people about the challenges ahead and the hard work required to overcome them." "As we embark on the momentous journey ahead of us over the next few years, our shared values, interests and ambitions can - and must - bring us together as a united country." In an article for the Sun, the prime minister says she is determined to cut the cost of living for ordinary working families, keep taxes low and "to intervene when markets are not working as they should". Labour said the Conservatives had broken 50 promises over the past two years, on living standards, NHS spending, school funding and the deficit, and could not be trusted. The SNP, meanwhile, said Theresa May wanted a "free hand to dismantle the welfare state and to push through their reckless plans for a hard Brexit which threaten jobs, investment and livelihoods."
Corbyn, Farron, Nuttall, Sturgeon and May. What have the British people done to deserve this bunch of c*nts?...
Though I want the softest possible Brexit, I feel I should point out again that WTO tariffs are not punitive ( well under 10% for most sectors, most typically 3%) and already offset by the fall in the £. If they were awful the US would not be our biggest single export destination at $55bn (We import $93Bn worth of stuff from Germany). It is less than ideal but tariffs are not the problem, regulation and bureaucracy in trade with the EU, easily our biggest overall market, is. And by committing to leave the Customs Union I fear some element of this is inevitable. I'll read the Tory manifesto later. From what I hear on the news, more austerity.
You work hard all your life, dutifully pay all your tax and national insurance, most of your cash is locked up in your house which you were hoping would fund your kids to get on the housing ladder, which is nigh on impossible for them without help. But no more, once you have croaked your kids will have to sell your house to pay for the social care you received in your last few years, and will be left with at most £100k between them. So we have arrived, care in your old age is a commodity and your own responsibility. Healthcare next. This policy should come with a sister one of establishing suicide booths on every street corner for the frail. Anyway, free and gratis, here's how to dodge it. If you think your are going to need help at home or residential care in the next couple of years, sell your house, lock the proceeds up in trust funds for your kids (do not give it to them, because they will be taxed on it if you die within 7 years. Trust funds can also get you, or your heirs, out of paying most of the Inheritance Tax on cash most of us have already been taxed on at least twice, should you need to) and move into rented accommodation (or just downsize to something worth less than £100k if you can find such a thing anywhere you would actually want to live). The Tory policy on this in their 2015 manifesto was much better. Funding care for the elderly is a major problem going forward. I'll contribute, tax me more. Big Mother can't do this (or at least say it out loud) as a low tax Tory (though taxes will go up under her, trust me). So here is our choice: continued Tory obsession with lowering the national debt through austerity and reducing public services. A lower debt would be good in theory because the government would pay less interest on it, releasing funds for public services, or more likely under the Tories cut taxes for all, but the rich benefitting most. We have been doing this for 7 years, stagnating living standards and increased poverty the result. Or a huge spending splurge and higher taxes under Labour, which in theory should provide an economic boost, but might send us under when Brexit pressures and the market reaction to Corbyn kick in. Both scenarios require a continuallly growing economy to work, and the best we can predict at the moment is 'uncertainty'. Full marks to the Tories for not dressing stuff up in their manifesto. Apart from the immigration promise. Faustian pact with the electorate - you take some more pain, we will promise that you won't see as many foreigners. Honest.
I haven't yet done my big sit-down-and-decide-whos-lies-to-believe exercise yet - but you can be sure I'll be reading the manifestos themselves, not the helpful summaries provided by the media. Just pondering, though. If you end up with some savings and a house, having contributed all your life to the healthcare and social care of people 20-30 years older than you through your taxes, doesn't this feel a bit like a betrayal? You paid for them because people younger than you were going to pay for you. Not any more, it seems. Still thinking this through, but that's my initial thought.
Nick Clegg speaking at the Oxford union EU debate in 2015 "After the EU referendum, there will be some, who like those Japanese soldiers who continued fighting the last war because no one told them it had ended,will carry on arguing and arguing and arguing. The rest of us will move on with the rest of our lives" Smug Lib Dumb ****, go tell dim Tim the war is over & his side lost.
A true quote, but we've all heard the clip of Farage saying he'd expect UKIP to continue to fight for Brexit if it was (and he picked the percentage...) 52-48 for staying in. Both of them are as daft as each other in hoping it will all go away. Except, of course, they know it won't - they're just cynically hoping some people will accept it. The 'war' will not be over until Brexit has actually happened. The Lib Dems seem to believe they can still stop the Conservatives, Labour and the EU27 from it being a financial and social disaster without preventing the sovereignty and immigration changes. I can't see how, but there you go... politics is a grubby business and they'll get some extra votes because of it.
Interesting that the Tories define Conservatism in almost wholly negative terms "Because Conservatism is not and never has been the philosophy described by caricaturists. We do not believe in untrammelled free markets. We reject the cult of selfish individualism. We abhor social division, injustice, unfairness and inequality. We see rigid dogma and ideology not just as needless but dangerous. " But good news that Thatcherism is dead.
I'm not quite sure what to make of the Tory manifesto. They obviously believe that older people are guaranteed to vote for them, whatever they do. I see Gove has called it a 'very brave document'. In Yes, Prime Minister that would have been a damning description.
