It's not ridiculous to state that we would be in the Europa League if we had won the EFL Cup, which was really my point.
I don't fancy going over the argument again but the short answer is that it's harder to finish 6th in the league than it is to reach either cup final. A simple look at the clubs who've finished sixth and those who reached a cup final in the last 10 years shows that. Now, if you want to talk about the memories of a day out at Wembley and winning a trophy then fair enough. I'm not that excited by the idea of winning the League Cup but if you are then that's great and if it happens it should be enjoyed. That emotional side of it is something I can't argue with. Don't try and claim it's a sign of progress though or say that it makes us stand out from the pack. It just doesn't. The way to stand out from the pack is to consistently finish in or close to the top 6 in the league. Cup wins and cup finals don't mean too much in that context. Pompey, Swansea, Wigan and Birmingham have all "stood out" by winning a cup in recent years and it's really done nothing for them. 3 were relegated in the same season or soon after and the fourth is currently sitting in the relegation zone. When it comes to reaching finals you can add the likes of Bradford, Sunderland and Cardiff to the list. Bradford were no doubt helped financially by their run but that's probably all. It really doesn't make a team stand out to players (or investors). Even though we're not chasing Champions League I'll trot out the old Arsene Wenger line - when you try to sign players they do ask if you're in the Champions League, they don't ask if you've won the League Cup recently.
Consistently finishing in a high league position may be more indicative of how good a team you are than winning a cup, but it isn't mutually exclusive. Getting to the cup final this year was a bonus and fun for both the team and the fans....don't tell me the team weren't excited about it. This argument only makes sense if you can only have one and not the other.
Well to be fair, the way you put it, it was as if you knew for a fact that disallowed goal denied us victory which is absurd.
Don't get too hung up Tom, of course it was absurd. I was pointing out to Beddy that that was our route to Europe.
If you only care about seeing how well clubs are doing why look at the league table at all? You can still get outliers like chelsea last season or Leicester. If that's what's important to you why don't you wait for the end of year financial statements? That's what truly shows the progress of a club. Everton and Liverpool finished below us but still stole our players. For me I get excited by special moments. 6th place doesnt excite me. Getting to Europe and playing in Milan does though. as does a final in Wembley. Yes it would be nice to get into Europe again but I don't want to throw a tournament to do it. Besides, it's the rarity that makes it special. Edit: finally fixed the post! Forum Kept adding my text to pucks quote.
This is undoubtedly true, certainly for the big clubs, but I'm not sure our squad is at the point where the extra games involved in a League Cup run won't affect our league form, particularly in a season where we have European games to play as well. Plenty of people have defended Puel in this thread by referring to the number of games we played. Others have talked about rotation as a problem and/or suggested the number of games we played this season (particularly up to, say, January) is part of the reason why we've had a slightly lacklustre season.
There is a lot of common sense in this post. However, I think that whatever the circumstances of these clubs afterwards, the memory of winning silverware at Wembley will never be taken away from them .I can agree with a lot of this post but it is fascinating to see where fans place each of the different cups or competitions in rank. I can understand why a League Cup win might appear low down in the scale of things yet if you can reach the semi finals, the competition does seem far more attractive. Of the domestic competitions, it is the one that a lower level club is must likely to win. Whilst winning this competition would probably make me more disposed to Claude Puel, we did not win it despite being the best team on the day. No one remembers who came second. After "blooding" a number of younger players, this remains CP's greatest achievement. The Europa Cup competition is a novelty for us and I can understand the attraction of trips to foreign countries and watching teams whose names are difficult to pronounce. I think we should have progressed through the league stage and if did offer fans the chance to see something new and fresh. I am not sure that the competition is quite so appealing to clubs who habitually play in the Champion's League. From a novelty perspective, I wish we had been more aggressive in those matches and progressed further. This was a massive disappointment seeing what we could have done and I feel that Fonte's ;legacy at the club merited his inclusion in the squad. CP just aggravated the situation by dropping him for the European games. The one competition no one has really commented upon is the FA Cup. The defeat to Arsenal is probably the low point in the season as a home performance. It is as poor as Poch's performance at Sunderland and Puel equally disrespected the fans and the competition. Personally, the FA Cup remains THE cup competition in football. I love the unpredictability of it and the romance that surrounds this trophy. To exit without a fight against a 3rd string Arsenal team disrespected the fans. I appreciate that the EPL is everything these days, but we should have gone out of the FA cup with a bang and not a whimper. Ultimately, CP's reputation will boil down to where we finish in the league. Finishing 8th or 9th will be a massive achievement this season but I am not convinced that this is sufficient to save the current management structure. Pull the rabbit out of the hat, I might be convinced that he is worth keeping but it is a massive ask. Destroy Arsenal and Man Utd at home and I would review my perception. Personally, I am surprised it will happen after the three recent home matches. I think the most likely results will be against Stoke and 'Boro and I can't see us picking anything up in the other matches. The comments section in the DE is interesting. I am not enthused by Puel's style of play and think he is out thought from a tactical position too often. But is he really worse than Branfoot? Until recently, we have had a number of woeful managers including Poortlviet, Stuart Gray and Steve Wigley - the latter being especially bad, I would also have to include Dave Merrington as one of our worst. He was certainly no better than Puel. I would also say that Redknapp and Buurey did not pull up trees for me either. Paul Sturrock seemed to have the potential to be a disaster as well but was sacked before he caused too much damage. Strachan took us to a cup final too but I am sure he will be more fondly remembered by Saints fans in the years to come than Claude Peul. On a win ration, CP is currently only behind Koeman, Hoddle, Dodgin, Pardew & Adkins . He is comparable to Burley which is also surprise. It would be interesting to see the number of goals / game for managers as I think CP is probably one of the least entertaining appointments we made. Wonder if anyone things we would be better keeping CP biut sacking Black?
Eh? Finance is only part of it, and it's a part that's dependent to a large extent on consistent success on the pitch, possibly with a sugar daddy thrown in here and there. Chelsea and Man City lost huge sums while ascending to their current positions, Man Utd bring in huge sums of money because they were pretty consistently successful for 20 years or more. Liverpool and Everton (to a lesser extent) make decent money because they live off past glories. Spurs are similar, although they're improving as a team now. The league table is the best indicator of how a team has performed in a season. Consistent performance in the league over an extended period is the key to reputation, finance and competitiveness. Yes we finished above Liverpool last season but I believe that was the only time we've ever finished above them. Chelsea had a poor season last year but they may well end up winning the league both seasons either side of that one outlier. As I said before I don't get excited by the League Cup. If you do then fair enough, the emotional side of things can't be subject to argument. It just is what it is. Although I would point out that 6th place was getting to Europe and 6th place was responsible for the game in Milan.
Sorry, thats reversed. Consistent success on the pitch is only part of it, and thats in a large part dependent on finance. Everything else you said pretty much confirms that. Personally i think League cup performance will probably be more linked to our development as a club than the league as we are not in a big city like every club you just mentioned, we have to rely on other ways than supporters count to gather finance(although i don't think location is as important for that in the modern era). a good bet for us will be our academy. and we show off our academy first through the league cup. Thats why we did well in it this year. The last part was just my opinion, it wasn't part of an argument. Thats why i said 'for me'. and you don't need to point our 6th place gets us to Europe as that was what i was pointing out
Everything that you have listed there about dull football, being tactically out matched, crashing out of Europe/Cups etc is exactly the same as Koeman. If you take out the last 3 months of last season, on the face of it, has Puel really done any worse then Koeman has? Seem to remember a lot of fans calling for his head multiple times last season, then after the last 3 months he was "the best Manager we have ever had". Would you have wanted us to sack Koeman if it was him in charge this season with the same circumstances?
The first few games under Koeman were difficult but I was never dissatisfied with him as I always felt he had the experience to turn things around. I agree about Koeman's European exploits which were poor and effectively over before it properly began. I think with Ron in charge we came unstuck on the odd occasion but we always seemed to have a good go at the larger clubs. If the style of football had been pacier and the bankable wins at the beginning of the season not have been squandered, it would have been easier for CP, no doubt. My impression is that he lost a good proportion of fans in the first month and given the disappointment of the departure of RK, I think many fans did not give him a chance to begin with. The style of football he offered was so alien to what we had been used to since the appointment of Adkins that I just feel he was probably not quite the fit that the board envisaged when he was appointed. The only "truth" is the reputation of bringing younger players on has been fulfilled. This, the Cup final, the league match against Liverpool and the Inter game are certainly he finest achievements. The last three home matches has seen him out-smarted. Ditto the Swansea match. For me, this happens far too often. The home league match against Liverpool did show a lot of nous from a technical perspective with the midfield forming a second wall of defence. I was very impressed with that performance. A few seasons earlier and we would have given Liverpool some of their own medicine. Unfortunately, it just happens too infrequently. How many times have you heard the crowd sing his name?
I know he does the prick cos after they knocked City out in last 16 I said to my mate that I fancied them to win it
