Agreed. Setting up with 4 at the back and Son in front of Davies meant that he had little cover on the flanks and centrally was helped by an out-of-sorts Dier who was playing on his weaker foot. It was doomed to fail. As little as Pochettino seems to trust Wimmer, starting him in a 3 with Davies further forward would've provided some serious solidity against Mane's threat.
No they are not.... Davies looks ponderous, and I don't think he suits Pochettino's current style of play. Dier needs everyone else in the team to be playing well. It would seem that neither one of these two have the ability to take charge of a game or even boss they immediate opponent, man for man. Players like these can be very limiting to managers of the present-day game. They can not sufficiently affect football games. And whilst they're not exactly makeweights now, they very soon will be, if they do not improve within the current framework and method of play. No team should not be as markedly weakened by one or two substitutions, as witnessed today. Poch must surely be feeling restricted., right about now.
What baffles me is how we are so poor at coping with being pressed when pressing is our forte. If we come across a pressing team, its always us who usually get out pressed. Liverpool press a lot sharper than us in these big games...even going as far back as Klopp's first game in charge of Pool at the Lane which finished 0-0 we were out pressed and **** our load in the process. Everything for me is pointing at Poch today. We play half the season away, its a matter of fact and one that needs dealing with I cant stand the toothlessness of our away games against other top teams. That psyche doesn't win leagues.
Most teams that try and and press us get out pressed. Pressing is in Klopps genes, I don't think there's a better manager at getting his team to press. To beat Liverpool at the moment you just need to stay compact at the back and break on the counter. The reason Liverpool have a good record against the bigger teams is they play their normal games against us, and we out press them. Team like Burnley, Hull etc. don't press at all, and we struggle to break them down. Frustrating as **** at times tho.
Jeez, did anyone see the analysis on MotD of our shape at the back? It was an absolute mess. It looked like walker was in 352 autopilot mode in terms of positioning, as that's what he's gotten used to recently. Our "defence" was an "L" shape at one point. I still can't fathom why we allowed Ben Davies to be left in that position on his own against Mane. How did we ever think that Son would be the player to provide any support against arguably the best right sided player we'd be facing this season? Danny Murphy was quick to point out where our attacking problems lie. When asked, "Pace" was literally all he had to say. It's a serious issue that we need to address in the summer. Whether that's the rising of GKN who is ready to be unleashed, the Return of the N'Jie, or someone new who is READY. We know how successful the 352 is when rose and Walker provide us with speed, as they turn defense to attack and essentially play the roles of 3 positions, each. However, to be in a situation where you take 1 or both out of the team and the style of play completely folds is a massive concern. Yesterday showed that our previous 4231 doesn't work with the current players available. It hands over the attacking at speed/pace responsibilities to players in other areas on the pitch. Unfortunately, we don't have these in our starting lineup. Against most teams it sees us passing sideways across the box, as they sit deep and know there's no real wide threat so they stay compact. We aren't brilliant when it comes to intricate play around the box, and often huff and puff, struggling to break the opposition down. - The only slight bonus is that despite us looking like we won't score, nor do the opposition. Against the stronger sides in the league, the implications are much worse. We can out press and out pass most teams, but as soon as any quality side takes the game to us, we have a whole new set of defensive issues. The lack of pace in midfield makes our attacks extremely slow and predicatable, that when we lose the ball we find ourselves under pressure in a deeper area of the pitch than we'd probably like. we're quite good at winning the ball back most of the time, but the lack of pace in attack means our transitional play is nothing short of poor and disconnected. All of the front 4 have their backs to goal, are marked extremely tight, are in deeper positions than they should be, and are often struggling for a decent outlet for a penetrative pass. - all because the full backs don't have the freedom to play. I'm not saying that the formation doesn't ever work, but we're a couple of players and some key attributes missing from the squad to make it work right now. I think Lamela is probably one of those players, but I think there's definitely another quick intricate attacker needed as the final piece of the puzzle. You've only got to look at how many teams use that formation now to realise that it's becoming something much more familiar and easy for coaches/managers to deal with, as they are frequently using it themselves or playing against it. I think my biggest frustration is when I see us line up like we did yesterday, most of the time I end up watching an AVB Tottenham team that I know are capable of so much more. Anyway, as others have said, just 3 defeats to top sides is something to be extremely happy with. We've played all the top sides away now, and we're second. Who knows, maybe Chelsea and city will face upsets in their games too. COYS
I never ceased to be amazed how football fans can change so much from game to game. Following yesterday we are now seen as incapable against top opposition away. Really! how short are your memories we completely dominated at Stamford Bridge in the first half. That we did not finish the half with a substantial lead was down to the fickle fates that always play a major part in any football game. To those who think mind is not a major factor in football explain why it's always harder to win away from home. Explain why United are out of the top 4 and why the current runaway leaders were 10th last season and the current champions are looking relegation in the eyes. Of course mind is a major factor and it's frankly ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Why do you think teams pay managers huge sums? We have not suddenly become crap as we were not suddenly invincible following our defeat of Chelsea, this is how the media works. Maybe we should have shown Liverpool a little more respect and played a defensive game, maybe that is always why Spurs over the years always fall before the final hurdle. We do not approach games like a Pulis team (thank goodness) but we should perhaps adopt a less open method against top teams on their own doorstep. Klop said, sensibly, after his teams victory let's not go nuts. He knows how fickle the media are and how they will now drool over a team they were writing off last week.
1) we were poor beyond words yesterday. 2) 3 key first team players are missing and that is hurting us imo. 3) we do not have a good squad depth. There is not enough quality to replace us losing Rose, Vertongen and Lamela. 4) we are still in the top 4, still in the FA Cup and still in the EL. So that gives us 2 chances to qualify for the CL next year and 2 chances for a trophy. 5) We responded brilliantly after a poor performance at united where we gifted them a goal...we went on a run of 9 wins and 2 draws in the next 11 games and there is no reason we can not do that again. 6) The club will address the transfer issues. They know that they bought 3 players that have not delivered and I have no doubt that a striker and 2 wide players are being targeted. 7) coys
We had a bad day yesterday I stayed away until now because I was fuming last night. But looking back in the cold light of day I am going to try and be positive. Firstly I will give Liverpool credit they were played very well and were deserved winners and it could have been more than 2 for sure. From our point of view that is the first time this season we have been completely outplayed for 90 mins, in our other 2 defeats we were always in the game and on another day (particularly at Chelsea) we may have come away with a draw.
I understand the sentiment totally and I'm probably coming across as being fickle. I don't see it as fickle to be frustrated having made the observations as a fan yet Poch could not see it or be brave enough to adapt and its his job for which he gets paid handsomely. I've watched enough of Pool this season and under Klopp from day one of his arrival to know that they are going to be up for it, they always are for the big ones. I also know Mane is a beast, I also know Davies is a steady eddy defender and isn't devilish enough to cause any real attacking probs for them ala Rose. So with these factors plus the psychology of going to Anfield (which is a record that has bypassed me going to Uni, getting married, having kids etc)but still can't get 3 bloody points at Anfield... plus the weakness of Pool as a team as a defence. So what do we do? Not be brave enough to be positive but cowardly shut up shop as much as possible. Conte is leading a team that were sat 10th last year. I don't think they are superhuman...but Conte is intelligent. Fackin Victor Moses is a regular as a wing back. That idea would have eventually crossed my mind and as suggested Davies at the back and GKN as a wingback in a 352....Mane would not have had the keys to Anfield...he would have been too concerned with our attacking threats. Instead he made Mane the Express train v Davies the steady eddy as the key battle and we got shafted. I put this post up before the game, I knew what was coming Mane chasing GKN would have resulted in Mane giving up certainly by the 2nd half. I've watched him enough to know that if you take him away from his attacking game, he's rarely interested...Its a shame Poch doesn't watch other teams or in general expand his horizons, he might be a better manager. GKN would have doubled up on Mane too. Son just come on with 20 minutes to go mate that's when you are decent against top teams Not having a pop at you Spurf, just using your post to highlight what seems to have really annoyed me. I expect us to put in a half arsed attempt in the Europa too...but I want to be wrong with that one. Poch, I'm afraid im raising an eyebrow this weekend...not because we lost but because you was out thought(which can happen) and lacked bravery(which I find unforgivable at times) and showed a lack of faith in his own team..players pick that up.
Tactics were all wrong. You can't defend that high up the pitch against a player of Mane's pace and not expect to get punished. Especially when none of your defenders can match that pace. He skinned Davies for the first, and Dier for the second.
My post is there to popped at Spurlock and we are here to vent our frustrations with posters who care as much as we do. Whatever our differences we share our team.
@Roo spot on post mate. You've highlighted two problems that have left this season feeling a bit half-baked (that can all change of course, and I personally think it will). 1. Transitional play. This has been an issue since more or less the day Modric left. Since then, the space between defense and attack has been bridged by a very quick Welshman, then nobody for a few years, and then we got a manager who was wise enough to realise that we cannot afford to buy a like-for-like replacement of Moric's caliber, so he unleashed our FB's full potential and made them essentially our most important 'transitional' players. Not a single player in the PL has improved as much as Rose and Walker in the past 3 seasons, and Poch takes full credit for that. Our dilemma is that Dembele and Wanyama are strong enough to carry the ball forward, but dribbling 20 yards obviously takes much longer than passing 20 yards. It hurts me to say it, but Chelsea have achieved what they have achieved because they have Fabregas as an option from the bench to unpick parked bus teams with the incisive passes that currently no-one in a Spurs shirt looks likely to offer. Winks has some of those qualities but is obviously miles away from Fabricarse's level. The solution to this problem is either to spend upwards of £30m on a creative talent for CM, or to spend £30m on two FB's who have similar athleticism to Rose and Walker. I'm not saying they need to be the same quality - that would cost over £60m! But they do need to share the attributes that will stretch the opposition and keep them on the back foot. Pace and excellent stamina. Trippier and Davies have neither of those qualities. 2. The 4231 fallacy. I think we have forgotten just how effective this formation was last season. It doesn't help that Lamela has vanished into thin air this year, but to my mind the single biggest contributing factor to our revival of glorious AVB football can be summed up in two words: Eric Dier. With him deployed as a DM last year, we had a player who shielded the defense superbly, but was also completely at home dropping into a back 3 whenever we pushed forward. Wanyama is the superior player as a DM imo, but is nowhere nearly as comfortable dropping back into the CB line. This problem is identical to the problem above. The DM-come-CB we used last year enabled Rose and Walker to bomb forward, stretch the width of the pitch and create pockets of space in the middle for the goalscorers to exploit. It meant that our formation last year was 4-2-3-1 without possession, but 3-4-2-1/3-5-2 when we had possession (i.e. the majority of the time). What this boils down to is the reality that Rose and Walker are the most important players in the entire squad. They my not get the headlines and might not be heralded as England's saviours in the same way that Kane and Alli are, but that doesn't change the fact that removing even one of them from the starting line-up causes more problems than we have solutions for. I strongly feel that we don't need more pace/attacking talent in this team. We need to spend the entire summer cloning our FB's. And if that fails, sell Sissoko, Trippier, Fazio, Davies and Onomah to help fund like-for-like back-up.
We've got a 25 player squad of whom about 20 are a lot better than we should expect for the price we paid and the other five are either about a a good as we should expect or as yet unproven. How this is a poor recruitment strategy is beyond me. Poch makes some tactical mistakes but so do most managers. Provided we keep learning we will be fine. Most likely at the end of this weekend we will be third having lost only at Liverpool, Chelsea ando City. How this is any sort of disaster is beyond me.
Rose Lamela and Walker are the beating heart of this Spurs team not Eriksen as a BBC pundit suggested. Eriksen is our most creative along with Deli but we can live without either easier than we can do without Rose IMO Rose will not be subdued he fights and fights and that's why we missed him so badly yesterday. Liverpool put us under extreme pressure when ever we had the ball. They just would not let us settle. Rose would have fought and fought to counter this aggression. He leaves a huge whole in our team.
I don't think anyone could've predicted just how badly Janssen would struggle. But in GKN we spent 2 months chasing a carbon copy of Njie, and in Sissoko we signed a player inferior in every single measurable way to Nacer Chadli for 3 times as much as the latter and on twice the wages. If our starting point was Paulinho and Chiriches, I'd be in full agreement with you. But we started the summer with Mason, Bentaleb and Chadli and ended it with GKN, Janssen and Sissoko. In what way was that not 'poor recruitment'?
You guys were the perfect team for us to play against, assuming we played well. You wouldn't sit back and you'd look to attack which slowed us a lot more space to play in. Even when you didn't have the ball, you still didn't drop deep which is what teams have been doing and getting joy out of. You missed Rose, his pace alone would have given Mane a bit more to do, as it was all he had to do was outrun Davies, no actual skill required. Probably a bit of tactical misjudgment by Poch, coming to a field and trying to outplay us. Even if we aren't in great form, with our first choice midfield and forward line available for first time in 2 months we were always going to be a threat. Thats where Chelsea have advantage over rest of top 6. They can adapt their game. Play one way against big 6 and make sure don't lose By being solid at back and nicking a goal, and dealt against those at bottom by attacking constantly. You, us, Arsenal, city play one way no matter who it's against.
I don't think anyone is being fickle . Lots of constructive observations . Many have it bang on , such as Roo, C.Kane and many others . This league of gentleman is blessed with such dignity. The steadfast support of everything Spurs by Power has to be commended and l think we all agree with 90% of what anyone says . Tatically it was a mess yesterday but no one disputes that overall under Poch we have come a long way .
Mason was not the same player after returning from his injury. He and Chadli were not happy to be bench warmers so they asked to go elsewhere and to be honest it would have been wrong to keep them. We came third without Bentaleb playing. Something clearly went on behind the scenes imo. No one knew Janssen would crash and burn so badly or that GNK would be just like N'jie. The actual avoidable mistake in recruitment was Sissoko. He was NEVER going to be the answer so that one can legitimately be criticised but the other two just didn't work. Comparing them to Chadli, Mason and Bentaleb, who (while I have a lot of affection for them-particularly Chadli and Mason) were at best bit part players last season who made little or no impact on our season doesn't make sense to me. I hope this don't come across rudely cos I don't mean it to...I just think you have over simplified things
