Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Telford Ranger said:
No it's a lie.

"...Of all laws passed by the EU. the British voted for them as well..." was what was claimed. This is demonstrably false. I should say I don't think CH is a liar, just that in his excitement, his absolute belief in his cause, he's peddling an untruth and it needs nailing.

I take your point though. This passing of laws is a massive sore point for me. Pedantry aside I *think* I know what he's trying to say. I think he's saying that we've "been there" as it were while these laws were passed and that he thinks that should be enough, whether we as a country vote for these laws or not. If I'm right and he is saying this then he's massively wrong. Give me a truly accountable supranational organization fit for purpose and I'll genuinely consider ceding democratic control. The EU isn't this organization and it never will be.

There continues to be a lot of nonsense spouted about what EU law has done for us but does anyone really think if we hadn't been lied into the Common Market and gone through the whole Common Market/EC/EU/EUSSR process we'd still be sat here with 1972 statutes on our books and nothing else? Where we've had the sense to stay away from this organization and trusted ourselves we've done fine.

Single Currency anyone?
Click to expand...

The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.
 
Stroller said:
The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.
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Yes you're missing my point Stroller. One time is one time too many. This organization assumes for itself powers not expressly granted by the people it affects. In June most of us rejected this presumption.
 
Telford Ranger said:
Yes you're missing my point Stroller. One time is one time too many. This organization assumes for itself powers not expressly granted by the people it affects. In June most of us rejected this presumption.
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I passed no comment, but it does seem like an insignificant number to me. It would be interesting to know what these 56 laws were that we felt so strongly about.
 
Stroller said:
I passed no comment, but it does seem like an insignificant number to me. It would be interesting to know what these 56 laws were that we felt so strongly about.
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Posting it alone was a comment. It's your source you justify it.

Oh and

"Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.'
 
Bloody Hell Ed Milibore is trying to get a few more fans by turning up at that Demo tonight in Whitehall.
Funnily he mentions trump and those 6 countries yet Being Jewish you would have thought he would have mentioned the 16 countries that won't let Israelis in? <doh> He wonders why people didn't vote for him.
 
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They must be the Remainers demonstrating because the Brexit people wouldn't do that to the leader of the biggest economy in the world who wants to make a trade deal with us after leaving the EU.
 
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Stroller said:
My you're touchy. I posted it to provide some factual background. I didn't make those numbers up, are they wrong?
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I'm don't think I'm being touchy but yet again hey ho. In the context of a debate "factual backgrounds" as you present them are irrelevant as stand alone arguments. We can all post "facts", pie-charts, graphs and God knows what else till Kingdom Come. It'd be boring. What is relevant is what you make of them, how you interpret them, how they impact your life and inform your opinions.

Are they wrong? Define wrong in the context of this debate then you tell me. This is your quoted source. If they're not wrong as I think you're defining it, it tells me that your original source is woefully out of date and from opposing 1 time in 50 we are now opposing 1 time in 8; based on your own source. Am I wrong?

(And it's irrelevant. One time is one time too many.)
 
durbar2003 said:
They must be the Remainers demonstrating because the Brexit people wouldn't do that to the leader of the biggest economy in the world who wants to make a trade deal with us after leaving the EU.
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I think there is a connection. I bet most of the people demonstrating are 'Remoaners". I noticed that many of the vocal 'remainers' on my Facebook are also vocal about Trump. (That's my impression).
I also found out tonight that Obama put a six-month ban on Iraq yet no one cared, so why now? I am beginning to think it's all just anti-Trump. Oh well.
 
durbar2003 said:
They must be the Remainers demonstrating because the Brexit people wouldn't do that to the leader of the biggest economy in the world who wants to make a trade deal with us after leaving the EU.
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Don't think brexiteers directly corralate to pro-trump, I know plenty of them who hate the US as much as the EU. A lot are corbynites who are very much pro-brexit.

Trump has been elected on an America first ticket and has stiffed the free trade agreements negotiated by Obama. This has nothing to do with Brexit, but why should we expect a better free trade deal from a protectionist president than the one they were aiming for with TTIP? Brexiteers and remainers were in agreement that was a paxoing for the UK and the NHS. I don't see Trump dirverging from his promise on sticking up for US workers by giving any country a good trade deal.
 
Telford Ranger said:
Yes you're missing my point Stroller. One time is one time too many. This organization assumes for itself powers not expressly granted by the people it affects. In June most of us rejected this presumption.
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The one time is one time too many point is still subjective and based on one of the following (to my mind anyway):-
a) You'd have been happy to stay in the EU if the current set up never returned a vote that the UK wasn't in favour of (either meaning the UK runs the EU or much less legislation ever gets passed).
b) You'd have been happy to stay in the EU if the representation was democratically fairer even if that meant potentially less laws in the UK's favour.
c) You'd have wanted out whatever.

There's plenty of scope outside of those options that 48% of the voters in the referendum believe in (albeit academically now) that does allow for just one law against us not being too many.

Your view is perfectly fine for your perspective but for a thread where the debate continues it's also fair to say that the UK hasn't exactly been dictated to (ie against our will) on any kind of level.
 
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If you think the Trump hype is bad here you should see what it's like in the USA, just about every TV channel devotes endless time to every facet of what he's up to, dissecting it every whichway. The funny thing is he doesn't give a f*ck. I see he has just sacked the acting US Attorney-General after she questioned the legality of his ban.

I think it's fair to say it's only a matter of time till someone tries to shoot him, I heard quite a few Americans express that opinion last week...
 
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