Interesting debate as any of your daily tabloids will make scapegoating remarks about 'scroungers' ' dodgers' etc. whilst seemingly making no comment about the big corps which milk it big time I am deeply worried perhaps for the first time in my adult life about the future. I totally get where Toby is coming from.... younger people are really struggling economically.. .and are kept in line with the yoke of servitude propagated by Government The world does not have to be like this. However the biological alpha mentality is in the ascendancy and woe betide any little person who challenges.... I also invite someone to give me a fair analysis of what USA/UK are actually aiming to achieve. No headlines or rhetoric welcomed
Seems as if the use of language is the latest hot topic. From what I see here and in the UK it is being pared down to give instant reaction, rather than considered thought. You only have to look at the newspapers to see that some have found words to use in headlines that some people understand, while if they are presented with an article showing detail, they switch off after the first paragraph. Attention span seemingly is decreasing, possibly because people are so highly pressured these days they don't have time to sit, read and consider. The way that the media works today is all about instant reaction. Just look at some of the tripe you hear from football managers as they respond to questions straight after a game. Politicians who are at the forefront, not the ones who just get on with helping the area they represent, have learnt, or been taught how to say things that sound good, but on examination mean little or nothing. The word soundbite didn't even exist when I was younger. Brexit means Brexit in itself is a totally meaningless expression, yet how many times do you hear or see it, and if you read on further you find that to different people it means different things. The trouble is that to describe some of the actions that our politicians take requires more than one word, something that the media fight shy of because they know that the person on the other end would rather watch some reality show, or find out who was going to bed with who. Trump refused to take questions the other day because of the newspaper that wanted to ask. This is the route to dictatorship, and the same can be seen with the non-answers given by the PM. The media can investigate in depth, but then have to reduce it to phrases in the hope that people can want to find out more.
A friend of mine who is a head of a Buddhist order has this to say: Make America great again. ... divide Asia ... divide Europe ... divide the Middle East .......and divide the American people Simple!
Nonsense – financial mismanagement is something Labour, Liberal and Tories have had in common over the years – they are equally guilty. It's generally something that is caused by flawed ideology, lack of foresight or plain old incompetence. What I’m talking about is the deliberate approach taken by the current government to target the needy and vulnerable, including: *the bedroom tax – a totally unwarranted and ill-thought out policy, deliberately targeting those in social housing – generally the poorer end of society who simply could not afford the measure – and leading to homelessness, food & fuel poverty and suicide; *benefits sanctions – again, another totally unwarranted and ill-thought out policy, one that has seen this government resort to lies to justify their actions. The introduction of ‘performance targets’ for DWP staff - to achieve for personal reward or face the sack – in terms of sanctions imposed, sanctions callously imposed without warning for reasons ranging from the utterly trivial (not arriving 15 minutes before an appointment), to the utterly ridiculous (couldn’t attend as taking pregnant wife to hospital), to the utterly heartless (couldn’t attend as having emergency operation, or even dying). All of these have been imposed without discussion, without warning and now without proper recourse to appeal – and again leading to homelessness, food & fuel poverty and suicide. The lie promulgated by the Tories over the latter is that the incidence of benefit fraud justifies the action. Only under duress have they admitted that the cost of implementing this has been greater than the savings made. No mention made by them that the two sums added together produce a figure that is approximately one half of the amount of tax dodged by just one of their ranks, thanks to their unwillingness to tackle the issue of the rich actively avoiding tax to the detriment of the rest of society. You are grossly mistaken if you believe that ‘my political analysis starts from the premise that those I oppose are scum’. Over the years I have opposed the actions/beliefs of Labour, LibDem, Greens and the SNP – the difference being that I have never witnessed from them the deliberately planned callousness currently being displayed by Tories in ever-increasing measures. The only thing that even comes close was an action taken by, coincidentally, right-wing parties in Australia to gain power – an action involving murder. Like everyone else, I’m entitled to my opinion. Like everyone else, my opinions are informed by my own observations and life experiences – and for you to decry that by telling me that, based on your own beliefs, my opinion is invalid quite frankly says more about you than me. However, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it – as mistaken as it is.
Every Labour government in my lifetime has fallen from power amidst an economic crisis. The only one that survived for re-election was Tony Blair in 2001 as he had promised to follow Tory economic policy - which worked. Once Brown took over the economy went to pot. Revisionists on the Labour side have ever since pretended that Labour were not at fault and the Tories would have fared as badly. First that is hypothetical and secondly our performance did not mirror the worldwide problem - it was worse. Liberals and their derivatives have not held power so you cannot accuse them of mismanagement. Conservatives have had numerous re-elections following successful economic performance. From 1979 to 1997 despite ups and downs the UK economy grew better than before and better than our competitors. Labour can never make that claim. If you want money to fight poverty and injustice you first need to ask the Tories to make it for you. It was not a tax. It was a sensible policy to prevent families in subsidised housing living in homes larger than they needed. In fact it was badly executed and not properly thought through but the principle was good. Your final words are hysterical nonsense. Society should not pay for people to live in a house bigger than their requirements - that is for people who buy their own home and spend their own money - not their neighbours'. Usual Labour lie to give it a false label. [QUOTE*benefits sanctions – again, another totally unwarranted and ill-thought out policy, one that has seen this government resort to lies to justify their actions. The introduction of ‘performance targets’ for DWP staff - to achieve for personal reward or face the sack – in terms of sanctions imposed, sanctions callously imposed without warning for reasons ranging from the utterly trivial (not arriving 15 minutes before an appointment), to the utterly ridiculous (couldn’t attend as taking pregnant wife to hospital), to the utterly heartless (couldn’t attend as having emergency operation, or even dying). All of these have been imposed without discussion, without warning and now without proper recourse to appeal – and again leading to homelessness, food & fuel poverty and suicide. The lie promulgated by the Tories over the latter is that the incidence of benefit fraud justifies the action. Only under duress have they admitted that the cost of implementing this has been greater than the savings made. No mention made by them that the two sums added together produce a figure that is approximately one half of the amount of tax dodged by just one of their ranks, thanks to their unwillingness to tackle the issue of the rich actively avoiding tax to the detriment of the rest of society.[/QUOTE] You use tabloid examples to make another false case. If someone were to quote the Daily Mail on benefits scroungers you would be up in arms but you resort to the same propaganda but from the left. Fraud is fraud however common. Only those who hate the Tories constantly berate them for trying to prevent ordinary people's money being wasted. Usually they try to justify it by complaining that the rich get away with things. So it is alright to moan about rich fraud butnot poor fraud. Hypocrisy. [QUOTEYou are grossly mistaken if you believe that ‘my political analysis starts from the premise that those I oppose are scum’. Over the years I have opposed the actions/beliefs of Labour, LibDem, Greens and the SNP – the difference being that I have never witnessed from them the deliberately planned callousness currently being displayed by Tories in ever-increasing measures. The only thing that even comes close was an action taken by, coincidentally, right-wing parties in Australia to gain power – an action involving murder.[/QUOTE] I did not say where your political analysis started. I object to anyone calling another person "scum". You just happened to call the Tories scum in a thread supposed to be about Trump. You tell us you have opposed others. I can only tell what I see on here. You only post anti right wing comments. If it walks like a duck etc etc. Fine - if that is your view then great. No need to be defensive if you are anti right wing. I will revise my opinion of your views when I see some balance in them - until then I have you in a certain pigeon hole - rightly or wrongly. [QUOTELike everyone else, I’m entitled to my opinion. Like everyone else, my opinions are informed by my own observations and life experiences – and for you to decry that by telling me that, based on your own beliefs, my opinion is invalid quite frankly says more about you than me. However, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it – as mistaken as it is.[/QUOTE] I accept your opinions -where have I said I did not? In fact because I am genuinely middle of the road I agree with some and disagree with others. I find it curious that you claim to be not left wing - but you can call yourself what you will - it makes no never mind to me. Your last sentence is garbage. I have said and thought none of those things. Like Labour you just make it up. I simply loathe the fact that you call a human being scum. Starts and ends there. Someone who can have such an opinion of another person tells others all they need to know.
They all have their version of reality Labour or Tory. Again scum is a stereotype..... and I see no value in its use... it does indicate where the person locates the person one is stereotyping I think we can assist each other in working back from such stereotyping on these threads otherwise, as with the SH saga, we become victims of our own responses
I do not see how scum can be a stereotype. It is a pure and simply insult. I think though that you seem to be agreeing that the use of the word is not one that is helpful on this board. We have agreed not to insult each other - but there is also quite a strong feeling we should try not to insult those we discuss. Simply using the phrase Comrade Corbyn has been attacked many times. Using Comrade though is a stereotype - it positions him as a Communist - which he is not - but there are many people who would be proud to be called a Communist - try to find a single person who would like to be called or would call themselves scum. Entirely different.
Leo, although Corbyn's label says he is a socialist I'm sure his personal views are very similar or are the same as a communist. Not that it really matters.
What about the Scummers up the road, is that allowed ? I agree that referring to any other person as 'scum' is making a judgement about somebody we do not know personally. We can say that this or that person did things which led to a 'scummy' result, but that is different. Even murderers spend 95% of their time doing legal things but they are called scum because of the 5% - is that fair ?
I do not know. I think very few people nowadays are communist. One of my best friend's father used to be a very active member of the CPGB. Their views are very specific and I have never heard JC say anything remotely of the kind. I honestly believe he would be better as a Green. Their socialist views, economic policy, their environmental policies and less structured party machine would seem to be entirely in line with someone who is at heart a rebel not a leader.
Agreed except in the case of you know who Scum is perhaps not at all helpful.... However the sentiments that lead to labelling such are to be valued In terms of stereotyping... I think when we come to the end of out tether, an ultimate frustration , we may end up feeling to name someone in such a way... What the other says or does makes us feel bad and we cannot deal with it so we project the bad feeling on to the other.... ..
Have you ever heard Corbyn say that he believes in the collectivisation of all the means of production, distribution and exchange in the UK ? If not then you would do well not to make unfounded judgements about people.
Years ago I told my daughter off for using that description about them. I have never and never would call a person or a group of people scum. To me once you label people in a negative way you are discriminating. It is a short distance from labelling people whose political views you oppose as scum to labelling people whose religious, sexual or cultural views differ as scum. There are people who loathe homosexuality - are they entitled to call gay people scum?
Depends if they believe in simultaneous World revolution a la Trotsky, building in one state a la Stalin, or building it from below a la Kropotkin.
