Why Football Fans Need Safe Standing

I know that's the position of the SAG, but I'm not convinced. Firstly, that 8-minute 'rule', is it really a rule or is it a guideline from the green book which our SAG chooses to follow while other clubs/councils don't?

It's abundantly obvious from going to other grounds that loads of them would take significantly longer than 8 minutes to evacuate in an emergency. It routinely takes ages to get out of an away end. The KCOM actually seems to empty a fair bit quicker than most (no jokes about people leaving early please).

Since being told pretty much what you've just said, at the first FWG meeting a couple of years ago, I've taken more notice of the number of seats to my nearest exit stairway at away grounds. At Old Trafford, surely a higher risk ground for emergencies than almost any other ground, there are seats where you can only get out one way (because there's a barrier at the other end with no stairway) and the number of seats you'd have to pass to get out is far higher than the quoted 'maximum' by our SAG.

If they can fit rail seating at old grounds like Celtic's, then I'm sure it can be fitted at the KCOM with no major difficulties. However, it was clear to me from that meeting with the SAG guy at the FWG, that the attitude at Hull City/HCC is to try and find reasons not to do it, shrug and say it's impossible, hoping no one looks too deeply into the claims.

 

Well Cas you never know.
I thought i couldnt stand a full game with my back but managed it at Forrest and Wembley.

 

You do realise that people just stand in front of seats now don't you ?

It sounds more like an excuse to do nothing because doing nothing is just easier

 

Because of various health issues I can't stand for a full game with no support but could stand a full game with a rail to lean on. However, as I said, knowing the pace these things are done at, I don't expect to be around to to see it brought in.

 

You can't compare leaving the stadium at full time with reaching a safe place in an emergency, which is what the 8 minute guideline relates to. That's because for a proportion of people a safe place in an emergency is on the pitch, not out of the stadium.

The eight minute rule is indeed a guideline. But why you think any club owner, police force or licensing authority would want to wilfully exceed that is a mystery to me. We want the KCOM to be as safe as possible don't we?

 

My point is that most do. Whether it's getting outside or onto the pitch or wherever, other clubs don't seem to have a problem, even in crumbling old grounds like Burnley. Many clubs also seem to manage with much less segregation than us. I don't think there's much in the way of firm rules, but we follow this green guide and I'm not at all convinced that many other clubs do.

 

They do, I'd be fairly certain of it.

 

Like I said though, there's countless times I've been able to observe that they aren't doing. If the guideline is that you have to be no more than 11 seats from your nearest gangway (I can't remember the exact figure), then Old Trafford's away end has about double that in places. I remember counting them when we last played there.

Our concourse exits aren't particularly narrow or sparse compared to other grounds, and gaining access to the pitch in an emergency would be significantly easier than at other places. I can't understand under what possible conditions the KCOM would take longer to evacuate than say Turf Moor would.

 

There are a fair number of factors, but 'exceptionally complicated' is stretching it.

 

PLT to answer your question about the Green Guide, yes it is only a giude as I am often told. However that guide is written by a group of 'experts'. There isn't a stated case I am aware of in Law but I am sure that if I permitted a breach of the guide which resulted in a fatality. I would be hauled up in front of the judge and asked, who am I to think I know better than the people who wrote a giude that was developed on the back of several stadium disasters. The 8 minute rule is based on scientific evidence that after a certain amount of time the fight or flight human instinct kicks in and people will try and escape with total dissregard for others. All stadia in this country are designed such that everyone can under normal conditions , leave the area of viewing accomodation and enter a free flowing exit system. This does not include the time it takes to negotiate the entire exit route (GG 10.7). The 8 minutes can be reduced if the structure is of timber for example as this would conbust easier.

Your second point about the number of seats you need to negotiate is very valid and we have had some long discussions about this with regard to the layout of the away end at the KCOM. You are correct that the GG states that the maximumber of seats you should cross is 14 (GG 12.16), but it also states that you can travel a distance of 30m to an exit system, for example a vomitory(GG12.9). It also states that deviations from the guide are permitted if a risk assessment shows that both 12.9 & 12.16 have been taken into account.

As stated previously I welcome the introduction of rail seating as it would take away the headache of standing in seated areas. I would fully support the SMC and the club if the law permitted it.

Hopefully the FWG will be resurrected as it was a usefull platform to share infomation. If not I would be more than happy to attend any other fan group meetings such as the Supporters Trust.

We have been instructed by the Sports Gound Safety Authirity to engage with supporters as much as possible, hence why I joined this forum so that I could offer advice and infomation when required and hope it is taken this the way it is intended. I will endevour to provide facts and hope fans on this forum find it usefull.

 

Thank you well put!!

 

Thanks for that you saved me a job. Happy to explain the calculation if anyone wants boring to death!!!

 

Thanks for the explanations. It's got to be a positive thing being able to discuss these issues on an open forum like this.

 

My thoughts exactly, happy to engage.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38923080

The government "remains unconvinced" by the case to reintroduce safe standing to Premier League and Championship grounds in England.

Scottish champions Celtic opened a standing section at Celtic Park last summer, which a report says will continue to be monitored.

Premier League clubs agreed further talks on the possibility of introducing safe standing at grounds in November.

A change to allow standing in England would need a change in legislation.

Top flight and Championship stadiums have to be all-seater after terraces were outlawed in the aftermath of the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

Ninety-six Liverpool fans standing on the terraces died during the Reds' FA Cup semi-final with Nottingham Forest at Sheffield Wednesday's ground.

The report - an annual update to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport's 'Sporting Future: A New Strategy for an Active Nation' - also highlighted that the Premier League had honoured their commitment to at least double their investment in grassroots football with at least £100m a year of funding.

 

Even if, and it is a big if, they were introduced, it will be on a small scale, you won't see complete ends like there are in Germany.

 

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