Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Hull City

A win, but still not convincing enough (Barney has said enough this time so
I'll leave it at that) . The frustrating thing is that we know the team is better than this,
and given we are thereabouts we could get right into the mix.
But this is old territory (in the manager/players heads etc) .

And very proud of the WHL crowd regarding the Hullspurs.
All of those players in some part have played their part in getting Spurs to where
they are now/going. Perhaps Dawson can have the testimonial he deserves when
new WHL is ready.

 

It's not an "obsession" to have a defensive midfielder on the pitch, it's common sense - as evidenced by numerous past seasons where we have not shielded our back four, and regularly been punished for it.

 

The defensive midfielder is pretty much pivotal in the modern game, Makelele was probably the first one in this era to truly showcase how important it is to have someone who sacrifices personal glory for the benefit of the team. They do the dirty work and rarely get praised for it by the media/ neutral fans.

I don't think it's a coincidence that in recent years, the likes of Scotty Parker (who won a Spurs POTS award), Sandro, Dier and now Wanyama have endeared themselves to the Spurs faithful because we really appreciate their efforts in doing their best to protect our back five while allowing more forward players to grab the headlines. Thankfully we now have two exceptional DMs and it speaks volumes how well they've done due to our exceptional clean sheet/ goals conceded records (Toby and the improvement of Jan, Danny and Kyle also deserve recognition too, it's a collective effort).

If the attacking trio up their game to a more consistent standard, I'm more than happy to field two DMs in games providing Walker and Rose play. We essentially have two wingers in those two, so add them to a trio of Eriksen/ Alli/ Lamela/ Son/ Sissoko etc plus the striker, there's enough attacking intent in our side to warrant the need for two DM's as they'll be there to cover the marauding runs of our wingbacks. Our attacking trio have been the ones letting us down for the most part, they're the ones who criticism should be aimed at, not the guy(s) consistently doing the business week-in, week-out in the centre of the park.

 

You make some good points, SOS. What's beginning to worry me this season - and I touched on it above - is how slow our 'transition' play has become. The amount of time it gets us to move the ball from Hugo to in and around the opposition box is often shameful. We simply invite teams to defend in numbers against us as they know that even when they foray forward, they won't be caught out. Against a better team than Hull, our first two goals probably wouldn't have happened.

The front 3/4 are partly to blame for this sluggish transitional play, but maybe the bigger culprit is the fact that our 'in possession' plan seemingly must start with the ball at Hugo's feet and 3 out of 4 defenders positioned at the edge of our own area and sometimes as deep as the touchline itself. This in turn leads to Wanyama/Dier's 'in possession' starting position being much deeper than it was last year, which increases the gap between them and the front 3. Any combination of Wanyama/Dier/Dembele isn't good enough with long-range passing to close that gap quickly, which is why it took 30 passes to score the first goal - shifting an entire outfield line up from deep inside their own half to the opposition box while keeping possession is really hard if you haven't got a natural passer in the team. The only two alternatives are what we are seeing more and more frequently now:

A) A hopeful diagonal punt from Toby
B) Walker and Rose using their pace on the overlap to bring the ball rapidly into the danger zone

When he made the sub, I was as confused as anyone. But in retrospect from the second Winks came on, we regained control of the game. The first 15 minutes of the 2nd half were abysmal. Hull were exploiting the gaps between our lines and we were doing our best to show how ****e we are at passing beyond 5 yards. Winks brought a calmness to the midfield as well as a comfort on the ball that helped us close those gaps far more quickly and effectively. We didn't look back from there and Hull were never in the game from that moment on.

His development and progress have to be managed carefully, but to my mind Winks next to a DM will be far more effective in the long run than Dembele if we really want to continue with this possession nonsense straight out of Pep's little red book.

 

I think that if you are only looking for a slow build up that is all you will notice. I suspect our build up may be slower than last year but I also suspect it's nowhere near as different as you are suggesting. Any team with a high possession percentage (and we often have a really high percentage) is bound to be making "non-decisive" passes a lot of the time. If a team tried to make decisive passes all the time they'd simply give the ball away a lot. And be criticised for it.

 

1-26 gets the opposition all on the right then a rapid break on the left gets a goal. Good tactics.

 

The build up play has definitely been slower than last season, there's no doubting that and it's been really frustrating at times. We've always played out from the back though and I don't think much has changed there, the difference between last season and this is I think the attacking players aren't being ambitious enough in that final third and are often knocking the ball backwards too often which then puts too much onus on the likes of Jan/ Toby/ Dier to spray a perfect diagonal ball out wide or for Danny and Kyle to go on a run. I think the constant shuffling of the XI due to injuries hasn't helped with this though as it's not allowed a set XI to get a rhythm going but there's no excuses for the form of some of those in the more advanced roles, namely Eriksen, Alli, Sissoko and even Dembele, though thankfully Eriksen looks like he's regaining his form while Sissoko has been promising the last couple games. I've done a thread about Dembele as well, in which even though when fit and playing regularly he's superb and pretty much unstoppable, his constant injuries ruling him out of games is having an adverse effect on the squad/ performances and so it may be time to consider benching him in favour of those who generally remain fit.

I wasn't too disappointed in Winks coming on for Alli, I'd have preferred GKN or Son to add some pace but getting Alli off was more important to me, he's not been great this season but his past couple performances have been nothing short of dreadful and so getting him off was essential. Thankfully Winksy came on and like you say brought a lot of calmness to the game, killing off any hope for Hull, so kudos to the lad and Poch for that. Harry's having a great spell at the moment and is deservedly getting the game time. With each passing game, Winks' performances are further justifying as to why Mason was sold to allow his development. He may well end the season as first choice alongside a DM if he keeps these sort of performances up.

 

To my mind, as effective as Victor Wanyama is at winning the ball and closing down the opposition, his passing and football brain isn't a patch on Eric Dier and we miss his presence in the midfield. He's a proper footballer who can do a bit of everything and his partnership with Mousa was perfect last season. I'm not sure how to address it whilst using Victor's talents as well but we haven't got the blend right yet, unfortunately.

 

I think Poch wants to accommodate the both of them in his strongest XI. This would explain the surprising choice to go with 3 at the back against opposition as weak as Hull. Arsenal away was understandable as it stymied their talented AM's. But last night had the feel of an experiment. Poch had the personnel to go with our regular formation but he didn't. Having said this, I don't think the 3-4-2-1 is favoured because it allows Dier and Wanyama to be on the pitch at the same time; I think Poch sees it as an avenue to allow Walker and Rose to be as devastating as possible.

It's a formation that is working very well for Chelsea and by the same token should work well for us. It is interesting that Conte has preferred extra muscle in the '2' through the middle in Kante and Matic - neither of whom are particularly good at getting forward. The difference between us and them this year, injuries aside, has been the performance of their '3' in Hazard, Costa and Pedro/Willian.

Hugo
Dier Toby Jan
Walker Wanyama Dembele Rose
Eriksen Alli
Kane

Could well become our go-to line up. The issue with it is that game time for Lamela, GKN and Son (and Sissoko) will be drastically reduced as we start each match with 2 spots to accommodate the AM's.Chelsea look to be ditching Oscar in January for that very reason - he's a good player but can't get into the team.

 

I've said very similar to this.

Vic's been great, arguably signing of the season but he doesn't have the all round game aspects of Dier. He's better defensively but Dier has a better footballing brain as you say, Dier's passing is also a lot better than Vic's, he can also cross the ball if he's drifted out wide and from set pieces he's a big (albeit Vic has two goals to his name from them and Dier's yet to score ).

It's a such a ****ty scenario because when considering the form of the front three (until Eriksen recently) or in fact anyone one the pitch barring the defence, Wanyama is the last person who deserves to be dropped but for the benefit of the side, Dier does offer that little bit more going forward. An alternative is - and I've made a thread about this with regards to Dembele - seeing as Mousa is constantly picking up injuries and thus disrupting the rhythm of the side by being in and out of it, maybe it's time to go with a Dier-Wanyama pairing for the long haul (or give Winks a proper run). In fairness Alli's form could see him losing his spot and Mousa could very well operate in a more advanced role but I think a CM pairing (just like a CB pairing) needs a pair who can regularly play with one another and unfortunately it just looks like Mousa's niggling injuries make him too unreliable to maintain a spot as one of those.

 

I largely agree with this, but it also gives us a lot of options to play out from the back.
Alderweireld, Vertonghen and Dier are all very comfortable on the ball and they could turn up anywhere, once they're used to it.

Vertonghen's run last night was one example of that freedom, but so were both the goals.
Each of them came from a central player moving into a wide position, then playing it in for a fullback.
Nobody on the opposition team seemed to know who was supposed to be dealing with advancing centre-backs.

Is it the way forward for this side? I'm not entirely convinced, but it might be a good option at times, instead.
Pochettino often faces criticism for having no Plan B. Maybe this is it?

 

I watched the PSG game the other day and the backwards sideways thing was driving me nuts. I was wondering when it first started and who started it.Most teams seem to do a lot of it today in every league.It just gives the opposing teams time to "load the bases" at the back.
What have they done to our game?
Remember the days when a Cliff Jones received the ball at the half way line?He'd be off like a hare heading for the opposing touchline or the "their" goal.
Guess those days have gone forever........

 

I think all the teams who want to play possession football tend to suffer from a slow tempo - especially those that play out from the back. Teams put men behind the ball and force passes sideways or back.The Barcelona team under Pep were typical of this. Of course, he had some great players at his disposal, who could make a smart pass or clever run etc, giving their play an extra dimension.

Last season, your full backs gave you pace and width, which stretched the opposition, but it's not been as evident this season from what I've seen. Or, as appeared to be the case on Sunday, pushing the full backs up leaves you vulnerable to the counterattack. In that game, you looked better with Sissoko on, running at the full back. With the tendency for all other other attacking midfielders to want to come inside, Sissoko playing as a winger might be an option. Although you are much stronger overall than the early period of last season, there were similar problems then- a number of draws in low scoring games where you played a turgid possession game without width or pace.

 

I could see this happening too, especially with the lack of pace across most of the players who play in the "3". - and the fact we don't see any of those players used as right midfielders/wingers who run at the opposition either.
If we were to see Rose and Walkers positions used for this wide attacking wingback role regularly, we'd probably need to consider some similar back up players as understudies. Whilst I like Davies and Trippier, I don't think they are the right types of players to be coming in and doing the job, should we have an injury to Rose or Walker.
When either of those two step in, we need a formational change that involves a pacey LW or RW playing in front of them. Often we don't see this and our creativity suffers and we can't break teams down.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38324691

 

Wanyama is a proper DM.
That has implications for the attacking game when he is playing,
but that is something I expect the manager to account for in his line-ups.

 

Wanyama is a very good DM and Poch knew him from S'ton and knew that he was pivotal to his team there. But this is a different team, a team who finished above S'ton with Wanyama in it- so do we really need him. We were good enough defensively with Dier.

Dembele: looks great and holds on to the ball and we see him as being effective but Winks gets the ball and passes it around without the need to dribble.

Successful passing can be better than dribbling which is why Son and even Dele lose the ball so much. They would be better off passing.