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Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    This is the Financial Times on 8th May. How much clearer do you need it?

    Michael Gove says leaving EU would mean quitting single market
    Leave campaign would opt to quit trade bloc post Brexit

    Michael Gove says leaving EU would mean quitting single market Leave campaign would opt to quit trade bloc

    May 8, 2016 by: Emily Cadman and Henry Mance

    Britain will quit Europe’s single market if the country votes to leave the EU, Michael Gove, the Leave campaign’s most senior figure, has confirmed for the first time.

    The admission, which the vast majority of economists have warned would be the most disruptive option for the UK if it left the bloc, was seized on by pro-EU campaigners, who warned of the long-term damage such a move would bring. Chancellor George Osborne said that walking away from Europe’s tariff-free area of 500m consumers would be “catastrophic for people’s jobs, their incomes and their livelihoods”. Mr Gove, who is also justice secretary, said he wanted the UK to be “outside the single market but have access to it”. Full access would include paying into the EU budget, implementing Brussels’ regulations and accepting free-movement of people — requirements anathema to the Leave campaign. The clash over the single market is the first sign of how both campaigns are sharpening their focus since putting last week’s local elections behind them and with less than seven weeks until the referendum. In a jab at his cabinet colleague, Mr Osborne said: “Some people think wrecking the economy is a price worth paying — I absolutely reject that.” He added that house prices would suffer a “significant hit” if Britain voted to leave, in an appeal to older voters leaning towards Brexit. Sir Michael Rake, chairman of British telecoms group BT, said that membership of the UK’s most important trading market was “critical to the economic security of the country, investment and jobs” and Paul Kahn, president of Airbus US, said its business model was “entirely based on our ability to move products, people and ideas around Europe without any restriction”. Juergen Maier, chief executive of Siemens UK, said it was “staggering” to suggest that Britain should leave the single market. UK’s EU referendum: full coverage and analysis Mr Gove’s argument that the UK would easily be able to negotiate bilateral trade agreements once it is outside the EU has met a frosty response internationally.

    US President Barack Obama said the UK would be “at the back of the queue”, and senior European lawmakers have warned that there would be “no special treatment” for Britain. Mr Gove has also suggested that the UK could join the likes of Bosnia and Albania in a European free-trade zone, but experts have pointed out that these arrangements were designed to help scarred countries seeking to join the EU. However, some respected economists argue that the warnings of economic pain outside the single market are misplaced. Roger Bootle, founder of consultancy Capital Economics, recently said he believed the benefits of the single market had been “greatly oversold”. “Plenty of countries around the world have had great success selling into the single market without themselves being a member of it,” he said, citing the US and China. Related article FT View: Brexit is too high a price to pay over migration Britain can manage the inflow of EU migrants by investing more Simon Walker, director-general of the Institute for Directors, told the Financial Times that while companies did not have a unanimous view on Europe, and most loathed red tape, “they value access to the single market”, and that was one of the main reasons about 60 per cent of his members were intending to vote to remain. Mr Osborne said that the Treasury would soon publish a dossier on the short-term impact of Brexit, which would include warnings of lower property values and higher mortgage costs. That research would add to the Treasury’s long-term projection that households would be an average of £4,300 worse off within 15 years if the UK left the EU. But while most analysts agree that the housing market, particularly in London, would be hit by Brexit, the likelihood of higher mortgage costs is far more contentious. Most economists, regardless of whether they believed the long-term impact of Brexit would be negative or positive, expect there would be a short-term negative shock to the economy. The most likely response from the Bank of England would be to cut interest rates to help a weaker economy, not raise them. Additional reporting by Sarah Gordon
     
    #7941
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
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  2. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    If she called a General election there would be no opposition. I love the word 'mandate', which actually means we lost the vote and need something to cling onto.
     
    #7942
  3. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    That's not what it means at all. If Remain had narrowly won, do you think the 48% would just say "yeah it was close but we lost, let them get on with it regardless of what they want to implement"?
     
    #7943
  4. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    Gove obviously didn't tell Daniel Hannan (see post 7924) or Stephen Phillips MP, the Tory Leave voter who resigned over the government's approach.

    What about these quotes?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...arage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce

    Clear as mud.
     
    #7944
  5. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    This is the most sensible post since I said 'Harry didn't have a dodgy knee'. Goldhawk you are spot on! Never would any of the big boys leave London for a Brussels or a Frankfurt. It makes me laugh when I read posts saying the companies will leave. Ain't happening. In fact even yesterday on the American business channel they had this banker on who basically said 'why would we leave London'?
     
    #7945
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  6. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    What you mean what Blair and Brown did when they sold us out to Europe?
     
    #7946
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  7. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    Hardly a comparable situation, is it?
     
    #7947
  8. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Michael Gove was the senior Leave campaigner. He said leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market. David Cameron was prime minister and senior Remain campaigner. He said leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market.

    There will always be mavericks that express their own view.
     
    #7948
  9. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    Best you stick to the 'clappy Mackie' debate Watford.
     
    #7949
  10. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    No I quite like this one. I don't see why you think people should sit on their hands while our unelected PM prioritises immigration over trade based on the results of a vague vote narrowly won.
     
    #7950
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  11. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    My point is that a significant minority of Leave voters will have wanted to stay in the Single Market and that there is therefore no mandate for May to rule this out. We have an unelected Prime Minister pursuing a course that a minority of referendum voters actually wanted. She should call a general election or a second referendum.
     
    #7951
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  12. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    Watford sorry bud I mixed up what Stroller said with you. :emoticon-0148-yes:
     
    #7952
  13. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    I will try again....What mandate did Blair and Brown have when they sold us out to Europe? Did we vote for them to give everything away? Did we think they would be letting in millions of Eastern Europeans? We can all remember the '10's of thousands' quote, surely even you Stroller? The reason we are in this so-called mess, which the 'remoaners' keep going on about is down to those 2 muppets. We would probably still be in the EU if they hadn't sold us out. Don't blame May or Cameron (although he did do a Neville Chamberlain) blame Blair and Brown.
    They were the idiots that allowed millions of people to enter the country peeing off millions of Britains.
     
    #7953
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  14. TheBigDipper

    TheBigDipper Well-Known Member

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    And they are both such trustworthy people, aren't they? ;-)

    That aside - it doesn't matter who said what, as there was plenty of garbage spoken (or not, by those who didn't speak at all when they should have).

    We're leaving. Economically, it will probably hurt quite a lot for a while - maybe a generation. There is little chance we'll stay in the single market. Enough people within the process seem to think we'd be better off just leaving and they have the controls.

    The real question is what will the people in government do with their new-found sovereignty and freedom from the oversight of our EU partners?

    That's the question I'm trying to get answers to from those who voted Brexit, because those who did not have no idea what positive things will happen. We know that UK people will make all UK laws, but what sort of laws will they make? We know we'll be able to trade with anyone we want, but under what terms? When you all voted for Brexit, what did you think would be our future in 5 years, 10 years time? What sort of a country? How healthy an economy? When you cast your vote, you must have given it some thought. You didn't just vote AGAINST something without any idea of what that would mean, so please enlighten those of us who did not. Help us feel that this disruption is worthwhile.
     
    #7954
  15. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Cameron was coming on TV daily to say Leave meant leaving the Single Market, and Gove was saying the same thing. It was clear. Sure, most Leave voters including myself would love to have their cake and eat it, but are sympathetic to the EU's position that it's no realistic.

    There are big legal doubts over whether May can call a general election ahead of schedule, and voters have no appetite for another referendum (except Farron and Clegg)

    We have to go forwards, and a clean Brexit and a renegotiation is the only way to go.
     
    #7955
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  16. GoldhawkRoad

    GoldhawkRoad Well-Known Member

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    Let me remind you that the English have been making their own laws for at least 1000 years before we joined the Common Market 40 years ago, so I'm sure we'll manage. Many countries have based their legal systems on the English precedent.

    If you want my view of the future, there will be some uncertainties for the first five years while new arrangements are put in place. The EU will not impose punitive arrangements on the UK (and invite the UK to retaliate) because European governments are pragmatic before vindictive and they realise there are big advantages commercially, and on defence and security issues, in keeping good relations with the 5th biggest economy in the world. There will be many countries that want to do trade deals with us (you'll have to be patient as to the terms), the Commonwealth in particular, where we have ready and emerging markets that offer huge potential.
     
    #7956
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  17. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

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    See how quickly things change! Jean Claud Junker says he will seek a "Balanced solution" during Brexit negotiations.
    What happened to "punishing the British"?
     
    #7957
  18. QPR Oslo

    QPR Oslo Well-Known Member

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    I want the probable majority of MP's in the Commons who are not in favour of leaving the Single Market to get together and vote it down ASAP, a no confidence vote in the government is possible, and organise themselves together on this issue in the resuttng election. But I suppose it wont happen as it would need to be organised by Labour who probably don't want an election now. That is probably why Corbyn seems to let so much of what the Government does now go by.
     
    #7958
  19. TootingExcess

    TootingExcess Well-Known Member

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    Paul Nuttalls of UKIPS is going to stand in Stoke for the by-election; he has a really good chance. I hope he wins
     
    #7959
  20. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    Yep we need more anti-abortion religious fruitcakes in Parliament.
     
    #7960
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