Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    I feel it's time for another political thread, so in the interest of research I am once more watching Question Time in the hope of some material worthy of discussion.

    Andy Burnham looks a bit like a Thunderbirds puppet doesn't he?
     
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  2. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    Ok, the current argument is about the Tory intention to do away with tax credits because they 'subsidise low pay'. Simple answer - increase the minimum wage to the living wage.
     
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  3. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    These austerity protests seem a load of bollocks from people who just can't take that there will be a Tory government for another five years. The others lost, get on with it.
     
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  4. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    Also I've backed Burnham to be next Labour leader because he seemed the appropriately grey candidate to lose the next election before Umunna is ready to give it a proper go. Hope he puts in a good performance.
     
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  5. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    The Tories won a majority with 25% of the electorate voting for them.
     
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  6. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    More fool those who didn't vote.

    Didn't we have a referendum some time ago to change the voting system which lost? FPTP isn't ideal but I don't think any system is. Seems the best of a bad bunch.
     
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  7. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    Yes we did, but the Alternative Vote option offered was never going to be a realistic alternative. FPTP worked when there was a straight two-party fight, but we now need to have a proper PR system, in my opinion.
     
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  8. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    Bloody complicated though. Would it really be beneficial to the country for 15% (or whatever their share was) of MPs to be UKIP? Would anything ever get done when three or more parties have to form a coalition to govern?

    Who gets to be MP for each seat?
     
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  9. TWGWTDT

    TWGWTDT Well-Known Member

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    The parties are all very similar IMO
    They buy their policies from the same shop in Oxford
     
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  10. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    Yeah not much in it nowadays between Conservatives and Labour. Still doesn't stop the Tories being smeared as monacle-wearing toffs who feed on the blood of the poor and weak.

    Fortunately Milliband was the best Labour could come up with.
     
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  11. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose if we are going to have this discussion, we should be clear on what Cameron is 'renegotiating' on. This is it, there is no more detail available to the public as far as I know:

    In broad brush strokes he wants:
    1. An opt-out on the core EU aim of "ever closer union" including boosting the sovereignty and powers of national parliaments, so groups of them can block proposed EU legislation [my take - if the purpose of the EU is 'ever closer union' and we don't like it, we should leave]
    2. To safeguard the interests of the UK as a country and specifically of the City of London and other financial centres outside the eurozone [ this looks anti competitive to me, and against the interests of the Eurozone countries. The City should remain a major centre because it offers better stuff, whatever that is, and is more competitive. Of course if we leave the EU we won't be able to 'safegaurd our interersts' as easily. We reached a decision (in a rather muddled way) to stay out of the Euro, we need to live with the consequences of that, many of which seem positive.]
    3. To curb internal EU immigration by cutting benefits [I think he'll get this, but it doesn't answer the central question which is much more important to the electorate, how do we reduce immigration?]
    4. To make the EU more streamlined and competitive [difficult to argue against in principle, what does it mean?]

    Whatever the results, I doubt it will satisfy the anti EU Tories. I rather resent that this whole thing is really about an internal Conservative Party schism. I really don't think the general public is too bothered by the EU, except for immigration. Here's an idea on that - the UK legislates on it's own to restrict immigration and see if the EU then throws us out.

    My understanding is Cameron will be happy with some kind of promise about EU legislation/treaty change prior to a UK referendum. Tory sceptics already saying that 'you can't trust the EU to deliver on a promise' as if the EU as a concept makes decisions rather than the people who run the EU - the heads of it member states. So really they are saying 'you can't trust the German, French, Italian etc government leaders.'. Probably true, you also can't trust the British Government of course.

    Not sure whether tactically he is in a stronger or weaker position because of the two much bigger short term (hopefully) issues facing the EU - Greece and the boat people crisis.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  12. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    There's very little chance of leaving the EU, sadly. The campaign to stay will have unlimited funding and support from all sides. Farage will be smeared as a nutcase and anyone making perfectly rational arguments for leaving will be a racist.
     
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  13. TimPR78

    TimPR78 Well-Known Member

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    One good thing if we left the EU, threw out the migrants & blocked up the borders is that the benefit scroungers would have no more excuses not to work, although I guess there is the massive amount of businesses that would leave the UK leaving loads more unemployed, trade outside of the UK would drop significantly and I think it's best we forget the skilled worker shortfall we would have (esecially in areas such as the NHS) whilst an overpopulation of unskilled workers. If only being on Jeremy Kyle was considered a job!
     
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  14. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there would be much merit in just "throwing out the migrants". There are a lot of jobs which almost every British person considers beneath them now and someone has to do them and there are countless skilled migrants who plug some huge holes in our workforce.

    However it would potentially allow us to have an Aussie style system to vet applicants. We wouldn't be obligated to take on any of the increasing burden of the EU as a whole of inward migration from Africa and the Middle East and we certainly wouldn't have to allow people to exploit a loophole which allows them to earn money here and only pay NI while paying minimal taxes back home.
     
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  15. TimPR78

    TimPR78 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Watford just seen someone I know post a 'Britians first' thing on FB and struggle to believe people buy into their bullshit and was somewhat flippant and OTT with my post
     
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  16. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    Yeah seems to be a lot of that at the moment. There's an "anti-jewification" rally coming up in Golders Green to "take it back".
     
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  17. TimPR78

    TimPR78 Well-Known Member

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    One personal flaw I have in the anti EU debate is all I (being pro EU) tend to see is the people out there who are looking for someone to blame for their ****ty lives and not taking personal responsibility, sadly those are the ones that tend to shout loudest. I shall conceed their are other people with views and valid opinions that I should take on board, however the pros heavily outway the cons for me. ​
     
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    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
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  18. West WindsR

    West WindsR Well-Known Member

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    I'm still not sure what the pros are in reality. I get the trade argument but don't buy that trade with Germany, France etc. will suddenly collapse. No reason we can't have a Free Trade Area still existing.
     
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  19. Holden Chinaski

    Holden Chinaski Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason that as a nation we could prosper from leaving the EU. Nations such as Norway, Demark and Switzerland are doing well, without the EU, and have successfully negotiated their own trade deals. Ultimately, France and German need the U.K. to remain within the Union.

    If we do leave, then you'd have two strong economies supporting the rest. Which would pave the way for France to say, "why the f*** are we still paying for the Union?"
     
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  20. TimPR78

    TimPR78 Well-Known Member

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    It will be made more difficult, and lets face it we aren't exactly well liked in Europe anyway. If you were a director of a company that trades all over Europe where would you but your offices? I would certainly not be choosing the UK if they left and sadly that is how I expect a lot of these businesses are thinking, and to be honest I can't blame them
     
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