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The Monarchy Good or bad

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Norwayhornet, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Assume that was irony Norway :)
     
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  2. Norwayhornet

    Norwayhornet Well-Known Member

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    Aw shucks Leo you ruined it!!!! I was going fishing;)
     
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  3. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Aberdeen - you overlook that

    a) Magna Carta was actually a constitutional change reducing the monarch's powers not anything to do with building the country internationally
    b) Under Queen Elizabeth I we destroyed the Armada - the most powerful fleet ever put to sea up to that time and which would have made us a colony of Spain
    c) Under Victoria we built the Empire you complain about losing
    d) Under Elizabeth II the Empire was already in decline - the largest part India went before her time and she presided - very actively - in replacing a force driven Empire with a superb Commonwealth

    All that is an aside though - men and women are not, never will be and never should be "equals" - however they have the right to equal opportunity in life and if a female wants to aspire to a job in a previously male dominated environment the law should not prevent it - she should just show she is good enough. The same goes for inheritance - be it of the Monarchy or property. Under your logic we would return to a situation where only men can own property.

    It is an insult to 50% of our population to maintain out-dated unnecessary and irrelevant barriers - and it is one of the reasons I am glad sexism is outlawed.
     
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  4. Norwayhornet

    Norwayhornet Well-Known Member

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    Wow think a nerve was touched there! Cant wait for Aberdeens response ,this is going to be good!!!
     
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  5. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    leo good to debate but
    1) I've not said Magna carta was anything to do with building the country internationally and am well aware of its objective of reducing the monarchys powers which is why I mention it as post magna carta the monarchy is not what runs the country and what powers it does have could and would be removed if misused.
    2) As I understand it Elizabeth presided over a bunch of pirates including Drake and there is nothing to be proud of in the way England behaved at this point in history. In fact I would opine that the aristocracy and royal lineage are wholly responsible for the mistreatment of many a nation and in fact the world population at large. Elizabeth 1st certainly does not stand out to me as anything to be proud of.
    3) Whilst Victopria sat n the throne it was our industrial pioneers who built the empire, again she was just a figurehead and in fact an obstruction if anything to societys advancement. Poverty under victoria was a disgrace.
    4) Post war Britain has been a complete mess, thew germans have done a far better job of recovery even managing to turn around East Germany, whatever the reason for it I don't see much bang for the buck from Lizzy.
    If you ask the question would we be better off if we had a king in these periods probably not because the monarch will do as they're told and act as a figurehead. Aas such its my belief that that figurehead should continue to represent the tradition which is well established and its a waste of time and money to change any of the rules governing succession and the like.
    I agree 100% with meritocracy in job placement which makes me anti monarchy. It also means that I believe that men and women have different but complimentary roles to play in life, taking a reality pill in modern industrialised society man is the inferior sex. We in general are intellrctually inferior and certainly lack the manipulative skills of women. Our advantage is in brute force which we have engineered out of society. There are exceptions in that we do have high intellect males and physically powerful women but mixing the whole thing up results in the sick society we now have with a prevalence of lost direction in many individuals with no clear place in society.

    Oh and women generally have smaller fingers which means they dont mistype as much as me...
     
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  6. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    Lets go the full hog and abolish segregation in sport, no more womens athletics, womens swimming, womens rugby, womens football. Why not allow men to compete in these events based upon ability?
     
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  7. Norwayhornet

    Norwayhornet Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Aberdeen, I thought it was going to be good! Leo care to respond!
     
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  8. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    It is not only some of us who have brains ahead of typing fingers.

    Taken from the BBC website news section.

    Seated behind the choir will be faith representative and friends of the bridge and groom.

    <laugh>
     
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  9. Hornette_TID

    Hornette_TID Well-Known Member
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    If you want my tuppence, i think the mixed role thing is going too far. i like to think i'm a modern woman, but i wouldn't expect to go around opening doors for men, or leaving the loo seat up ;). Seriously, i'm in Aberdeen's camp. There is a place for each, just not the same place a lot of the time. You won't catch me burning my bra, but i do believe that if men and women are doing the same job, they should be equally paid and given equal opportunity to progress. And in my job, which is still a male dominant career, women are treated equally and are paid equally. (and often get more work because they are women, so maybe we're not equal after all!).
    Just don't start me on football...lol.

    Would i want the monarchy to change it's ascession rules? Honestly, i think Princess Anne would make a great queen, far better than Charles would be King...she has far more respect from people. But much as i like the monarchy, i don't feel affected by it, so i don't really care enough to worry about it.

    Well that was a load of waffle! lol
     
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  10. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    It was only yesterday when I was in a stately home and Charles came up in conversation (as some of his pics were on the table), he is in fact a good caring and intelligent bloke who spends his time constructively and has selected his causes well. It turned out he was a patron and active contributor to a very positive project on the estate. He and all royals are dealt a hand of cards as a birth right, I personally think thats wrong but find them to be irrelevant to my life and cost neutral as far as society is concerned, I would not waste political time on changing the way the family is run. I chose my wife whilst living in the latin culture and a lot of that society has washed off on me, family values, distinct roles, high degree of opportunity. I also respect greatly the arab culture when it comes to family and role definition. Its still not perfect but better for a society base than our own.
     
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  11. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    But that would be changing too many of the rules - ie the oldest child succeeds the parent to the throne! Oh, what the heck - do away with all of them!
     
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  12. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    Why should the eldest child get the gig, surely thats ageist..... leave it as is!!!!!
     
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  13. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Norway - no nerve touched - I like an intelligent debate with people who can take a difference of opinion - without that these boards would be pointless - in the early days of not606 I was disappointed as most of us here first seemed to agree on most things - boring
     
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  14. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Aberdeen

    1 - your Magna Carta reference just seemed irrelevant to a debate on King v Queen
    2 - in the days of the Tudors the monarchy actually made a difference. Henry VII won the monarchy for the Tudors, Henry VIII set England on a course away from continenetal Europe with his break from the papacy, Edward VI turned the church towards real protestantism, Mary turned it back to Catholic and Elizabeth then made it Protestant and in so doing annoyed Spain who tried to invade. She was areal Queen with power and direction - no Parliament making the decisions - she personally and I mean personally supervised the construction of the fleet to defeat the Armada without which we would have been a puppet of Spain
    3 Victoria was indeed more of a fugurative monarch as that had become the norm by then - thanks to the Scots who wrecked the monarchy with the awful Stuarts. However she played an active role in directing the expansion of an Empire and was much admired by the Geramsn of her day - Bismark et al
    4 Elizabeth is head of a constitutional monarchy - she can do no more nor less than a King. So why should her sex make any difference.

    Our constitution has changed throughout history and it is always updated - there is no place in modern society to deny women property - the Monarchy is just property of anther sort with sexist legislation.

    Economic success or fauilrue nowadays is not down to the Queen - in fact our decline as any sort of World power began at the turn of the Century - under a King and continued and accelerated fast after WWI - another King, thorught the 20s and 30s -more Kings.

    You could argue that relative to other countries our most successful period has beenthe last Quarter of the 20th century when not only did we have a Queen - but a female Prime MInister too

    - one off apologies for typos - I am not going to try to cotrrect them so long as they don't stop the meaning getting through
     
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  15. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Hornette - I think you are letting your sex down - women have fought for equality - in voting and other spheres - not to be "equal" in the sense of abandoning differences.

    No case can be made for denying a person something due to race, sex, sexual orientation or religion in my book
     
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  16. Hornette_TID

    Hornette_TID Well-Known Member
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    I think women believe they are equal in all things Leonardo, but in truth, they are not. They have strengths that men don't have, and weaknesses that men obviously do. i'm all for equality where it's possible, like the example i gave of the same job for equal pay. And i don't have a problem with women doing traditionally men things if they are able, electricians or plumbers or bus drivers, or company execs or prime ministers. There's no reason why women can't do these things, if they have the physical strength. I also think there will be a time, in the not too distant future, that women will be in football management! i hate that women can't wear a Lords tie and be in the 'elite' there. There's a lot that frustrates me about society that decrees that women can't be equal when they blatently can. But jobs that require physical strength i would see as 'mens jobs'..that's not to say women who are very strong couldn't do them. i agree Leonardo, nobody should be denied anything on the grounds of their sex, race or religion, but women are just not suited to everything, just as men are not, and there will always be exceptions. I find it sad now that society has begun to frown upon women that want to be housewives, that want to spend time in the old fashioned way, of housework and cooking and looking after their man. Women who fought for equality won just that, at the expense of women who have more traditional values.
     
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  17. Norwayhornet

    Norwayhornet Well-Known Member

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    Leo I think Aberdeen and Hornette are right at the end of the day its horses for courses , No point interfering with the natural order of things!
    Like Aberdeen says Women are the superior sex (because of their ability to wrap us round their little fingers) They just let us appear to run things to make us happy!:)
     
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  18. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    The thread was monarchy good or bad originally and magna carta became relevant as it was the means by which the momnarchy was stripped of its ultimate power. I am genuinely anti discrimination but believe in differences. As far as the monarchy goes I'd like to see it disappear but in the absence of that I'd just like to leave it as is, a living museum piece and as such like all antiques it should stay in as original condition as possible without meddling. Points about saying 50% of the race are being discriminated against are so far from the mark as to be ridiculous. In each generation it might be and in the current generation its irelevant 1 or 2 people out of a UK population of 60 million, totally ridiculous to change. As I say I've lived in the macho latin society where women really do rule the roost through their feminine charms, the arab society where the female is respected and put on a pedestal and this western society where women are treated as equal in the main and not respected as they should be. In the main society has now bought into the "all aduklts work" philosophy which has killed the family. Its meant that salaries have been lowered and business benefited from a larger cheaper labour force. Society has suffered big time with the loss of the ability in most cases for mothers to be mothers, in my opinion the toughest and greatest achievement any human can make. Mothers I salute you......................you are far more valuable to society than any company director.
     
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  19. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    :emoticon-0137-clapp My thoughts exactly <ok>
     
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  20. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe I am in a minority of one on this.

    Hornette - exactly what - apart from historic prejudice against women stops a woman having equal rights to inherit the throne?

    You are all arguing as if I am saying women should be equal - I am not - I am saying the law should not discriminate against them.

    I believe each person male or fremale should find the role in life that suits them. Lennietta and I were very lucky - I had a job that pulled in shed-loads ( no pun intended) of money so she was able to not take a paid job but did the old fashioned role of looking after the home and family - we both were happy in that. So no-one can accuse me of trying to make the sexes "equal"

    You cannot have discrimination though in property inheritance (the monarchy) or any other job though - it is not fair

    Aberdeen - I dont really care if we have a royal family or not - but to pretend it and our constitution have not evolved and will not continue to evolve is just plain inaccurate
     
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