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The McCanns in Portugal

Discussion in 'Watford' started by colognehornet, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Just thought that I would try to get this one away from the Nest, which is not really the place for debating. For me, leaving a 3 year old toddler alone in a hotel room leads to the perpetrator being held responsible for anything that happens - I don't need any lawyer to tell me that. A 3 year old is not in a position to be able to recognize danger, and, as far as I know, there was no 'listening' system in the hotel. However, they were in Portugal, and, as far as I am concerned, were subject to Portuguese law. If it was illegal in Portugal, and not in the UK. then they both should be spending time in a Portuguese prison - if it were the other way around ie. legal there, but not here, then there is, unfortunately, no case to answer. Can a person be arrested for a crime committed in another country if something was not considered a crime there ? If the latter were the case then every casual visitor to an Amsterdam coffee shop could be arrested in their homeland upon their return - myself included <laugh> For me, if you are in a country then you are subject to their laws, as long as they are within internationally agreed human rights directives.
     
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  2. Markthehorn

    Markthehorn Well-Known Member

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    Well it would have been interesting to se the reaction had they not been white collar professionals from a middle class background...

    Its sad they have lost their daughter in this way (one presumes she must be dead like poor Ben Needham) but unfortunately their woe could be a lesion for others.

    I suspect in private they probably think "if only"

    Not sure they need to be jailed though - seems a bit extreme!
     
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  3. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it could have been seen differently if we were talking about an unemployed pair who 'popped round to the boozer' for a few hours Mark. Doubtless they feel remorse and a sense of 'if only' but.......if you classify parenting in a similar catagory to the professional world then we would be talking about criminal negligence here. A train driver who 'fell asleep at the wheel' also has the feeling of 'if only' and, in my opinion, is less guilty in this case.
     
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  4. hornethologist a.k.a. theo

    hornethologist a.k.a. theo Well-Known Member

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    They took what for most parents would be regarded as an unacceptable risk and they paid a heavy price. I'm not sure what purpose jailing them would have served but as a general principle you probably shouldn't enter a country if you are not willing to be answerable to its laws.

    Whether the law is subject to class bias in general is debatable but my limited personal observation of it suggests to me the better educated you are, the more plausible your defence sounds and so perhaps you are more likely to be treated leniently.
     
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  5. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    I've said my two bob's worth in The Nest - but will re-iterate here:
    *They were found to be not guilty in Portugal - end of story in that regard;
    *To be charged with criminal neglect in England, the offence would have to meet the legal definition, be both willful and carried out in a manner likely to cause etc... What they did doesn't meet either requirement.

    Like me, every teacher I know around the world gets regular CPD updating on Child Protection, in order to be sure that we aware of our legal responsibilities regarding neglect - in terms of what to look for and reporting requirements. What the McCanns did can be termed foolish in the extreme, but certainly doesn't fit the bill for criminal neglect. There are far worse things seen every day in schools which don't meet that definition, even when witnessed and recorded repeatedly - if the parents involved were all jailed, the schools would doubtless have to shut to make way for extra prisons.

    I've said my piece and will now butt out... :)
     
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  6. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I think there is some research somewhere on this but I can't find it, which suggested that a defendant who speaks scouse sounds less plausible than the same excuse given in B.B.C. English.
     
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  7. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Whatever the legal definition is in the UK. wouldn't make any difference BB. if it was committed (and acquited) in Portugal then it is beyond Britain's jurisdiction. Can a 'crime' commited abroad be tried in the UK ? As you will agree - anyone can become a parent, without any qualifications, or necessary aptitude for the job - and millions of children suffer as a result. Regulating that seems impossible.
     
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  8. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    I knew that - but my original response was aimed at the comment that they should be locked up here regardless.

    Now I will butt out. :)
     
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  9. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the child (who was never found) was stolen, and sold for adoption. If so then maybe she found parents who knew how to take care of her - man can but dream.
     
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  10. Cornish Mark

    Cornish Mark Well-Known Member

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    I wish people would lay off vilifying the McCanns. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what happened, they and their family are truly suffering from the consequences and will suffer for al the rest of their lives, and no amount of self-righteous ( is hat how you spell it? ) indignation and criticism will make anything better for anyone.
     
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  11. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    Without wishing to join the debate on the rights and wrongs of this case, I have been made to wonder if the way in which people have grown up has had some bearing on how they behave as parents.
    There are two small children in my village who although they have English parents were both born in France. They have been going to the local schools since they were 3 years old, and apart from speaking perfect French they also behave as any other native child. Whenever I, or anyone else meets them, they will come up and offer a cheek to be kissed. They will happily come into any of the houses and have trust in the adults. I have been to my grand children's school many times now, and on plenty of occasions have found a small hand grasping mine without knowing who the child is. Adults here treat children with a great deal of love. My neighbour buys sweets that he cannot eat simply to give them to the children. On one visit to a zoo with family, a 10 year old heard me speaking English, and came up to me to say that he was learning English at school. Stooping down to his level we had a chat, and then I realized that he was one of a school party and his teacher was smiling with pleasure at his confidence and my response.
    On a visit to the UK a couple of years ago I was rebuked by a parent for picking up her child who had been running around in the supermarket, had fallen over and hit her head on a shelf. The girl was crying and had a bruise on her forehead. I was made to feel like some sort of criminal out to do the child harm.
    There is a difference in culture here. There is hardly ever a report on TV news or local paper items of children being harmed, something I believe can only have come about from the way that people have grown up.
     
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  12. brb

    brb CR250

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    Let me help you out because you really for some time now having been struggling with this one in our debate;

    At least 105 mothers and fathers faced criminal investigations for leaving their offspring unsupervised in the final three months of 2016.

    Under the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, parents in England and Wales can be prosecuted for wilful neglect if they leave a child unsupervised "in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health".

    The law does not give details of what amounts to wilful neglect, unnecessary suffering or injury to health - but punishment can range from a fine to 10 years imprisonment.

    A similar law applies to Scotland under an act passed in 1937.

    I'm sure you will find some way in still arguing your major oversight, but l think most would agree a 3 year child has come to some sort of unnecessary suffering or ill health of some kind, I will stop short of death because to date there is no factual evidence to support that.

    And there I rest my case for the prosecution of the parents that not only neglected their child but also resulted in it's disappearance, even if they had no part to play in that child's disappearance - to that I recommend the maximum sentence of 10 years :)
     
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  13. brb

    brb CR250

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    So why don't they clear off, stop writing books and attempting to sue people, basically in short they got away with the clear neglect and disappearance of their child, the least they could do is stop pretending everyone else is wrong and they are right, especially when they are lucky not to be staring at the inside of a prison cell.
     
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  14. kchorn

    kchorn Well-Known Member

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    Because we live in a world where the individual has freedoms and the McCanns are included in that.

    If you are so certain that it is in the public interest to find the McCains guilty of some offence, and you feel you can get such an obviously guilty verdict, the law permits you to pursue that.

    But beyond asking yourself "Is it in the public interest?" you might like to ask yourself how the publicity they have created may have helped many other parents/children.

    And finally as for the books please simply do not buy them or read them. Simples :emoticon-0140-rofl:
     
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  15. brb

    brb CR250

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    You seem to have forgot you asked a question, that I duly answered.

    But just to answer your further question, whether it is in the public interest or not, the McCann's continually wish to put THEMSELVES in the public eye...so in turn I will respond with guilty of neglect, they left a 3 year old toddler alone and that toddler as a result went missing.

    As for buying the book, I would not soil my human flesh with it, so no worries on that score about reading it!

    I would defend every child that was at risk of harm or come to harm, so in my view if people do not agree with my open views....tough...the toddler always comes first and foremost, no matter how many years down the line it is, the McCann's should have no place to hide until the outcome of the toddlers fate is found.

    And let's not forget in the majority of serious crimes, they are normally committed by a family member (not a stranger), who also probably swore their life and that of their remaining child that they were innocent.
     
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  16. kchorn

    kchorn Well-Known Member

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    I see where you are coming from but it seems a bit of an extreme reaction. Anyone can try and put themselves in the public eye. That's not an offence. But stating someone is guilty can be an offence.

    In truth I agree with your sentiment as an individual but would uphold the right of others to make their own choice.

    The problem I have with that is you seem to be trying to link the well being of toddlers with your arguments. But people with the opposite views to you also care about the well being of toddlers. The discussion should surely be if your methods would be more or less effective than the approach of others..

    But in this case we are as certain as we can be that that was not the case. So not sure what your point here is.

    Don't get me wrong I have no problem with people having different views but I do like to see the arguments presented fairly. Cheers :emoticon-0167-beer:
     
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  17. Mexican Hornet

    Mexican Hornet Well-Known Member

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    They´ve suffered enough.

    Unless they´re guilty, but doubt they were part of it directly like...
     
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  18. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    There is. Can't remember the source, I've got a feeling that Geordie was most trustworthy and Yorkshire (with a big Y ;)) was seen as plain speaking and down to earth. Birmingham was the least favoured.
     
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  19. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Ay oop...
     
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  20. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    George Bernard Shaw once said that 'it is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman despise him'. Doubtlessly when I go up in front of the judge and say something like ' Gentlemen of the bench I do solemnly give my word that I am absolutely innocent of any of the aforesaid charges' it comes over better than 'I never dun it guv' - and the judge, being more likely to belong to the plum eating classes, is likely to prefer the first.

    Similarly, the well known Tracey Sharon Smith (from Luton) who goes into court and says ' I ran out of fags and popped out to the boozer for 5 minutes, and when I cum back, there was my Mercedes hanging from the electrical cables' sniff, sniff, 'I'll never do nuffing like this again' is unlikely to sway the court in her favour. She is unlikely to receive nearly a million pounds in donations from well wishers. She is also unlikely to write a book about it. She is just one of the 300 people arrested every year in the UK. for child neglect. Just one of those 'others' who was, in no way, more guilty than the McCanns were. However, I am not an uncaring monster <laugh>, and I concede that they may have suffered enough already.
     
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