The Great Overtaking & Stewarding Debate

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by EternalMSC, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    Do you realize that Rosberg was so slow in the corner that Bernie could have taken a walk and overtaken him? The point is he couldn't use an excuse that he had too much speed and couldn't make the corner properly. He was slow enough that he could have made the corner with ease.
     
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  2. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    It's also easier for a driver to push another out wide knowing there is the tarmac run off. In the days of grass and gravel it would be more out of order to push someone so that they were off the tarmac. That is also part of the problem for all drivers.
     
    #62
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  3. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    So, there is no rule that prevents that and if you read my previous post I've already addressed this. We are not here to discuss breaches of rules that don't exist! There is no excuse for contact, there either is or there isn't. People need to get past this business of a driver tried (opinion not fact) so It doesn't matter that there is contact or he ran another driver past the 1 car width rule. The sport can't pick and choose which rules to apply at which corners.

    You need to put aside the fact that you are Lewis supporter, this isn't about him this about the rules and how they are implemented. I'm not a supporter of Nico, and as I've said if the stewards felt or knew there was intent then he should have been excluded. Your defending Lewis, he's not under attack the stewards are.

    Your picking and choosing different points to defend and attack drivers. I'm trying to show different drivers, in differing situations that have a different stewards outcome. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just trying to highlight that the sport is self creating its own issues and we are not getting fair and equal racing.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  4. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    Totally agree. Drivers had to yield or force contact and in doing so blame was easier to apportion or was deemed a racing incident. Drivers then have to make a judgement of whether they want to be in s race ir not.

    In years gone by the general consensus was that once you were alongside and held the inside line, as long as you were in control you were entitled to that corner. This meant that the fight for position happened prior to the corner entry or on entry. Now because of the 1 car width rule it entitles the car being overtaken to be afforded space to reduce the advantage of the overtaking car. The rules are simply moving the contact further round the corner and making it more convoluted to determine blame.

    The 1 car width should be abolished but the 1 move under braking should be vigoursly enforced and once you've made your defence you shouldn't be allowed to return back to the racing line. It would clean racing up immediately.
     
    #64
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
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  5. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the 1 car width being enforced on the exit of corners, hence a lead car can force another off the track because of the 'racing line' rule. The one car width should apply everywhere on the circuit so a car around the outside does not get crowded out at the exit and gets the opportunity to stay within the track limits.

    Sometimes the defender is on the inside, so an attacker can continue his potential overtake on the outside without being forced off, likewise someone defending around the outside does not have to yield the position because he again can carry the defence all the way. You rarely get cars side-by-side for more than one corner because of this daft racing line rule.
     
    #65
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  6. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    Again interesting update. Nico receives 2 penalty points and Gro escapes penalties and points because he "out breaked himself" -

    "Nico Rosberg has been given two penalty pointy by the stewards for forcing Max Verstappen off the track during the German Grand Prix.

    The Mercedes driver also received a five-second time penalty for the incident which occured while he was trying to overtake the Red Bull.

    The stewards ruled that Rosberg “forced car 33 off the track in turn six and gained a lasting advantage”.

    Rosberg now has a total of four penalty points.

    Romain Grosjean was cleared after being investigated for a similar incident at turn eight. The stewards ruled he “did not gain a lasting advantage from the incident and had out braked himself into turn eight”.

    Just found this in relation to the Barca incident on F1 fanatic, pretty neutral and probably reflects the stewards thoughts. This suggests a penalty not being given because a driver is out of control and is similar to the theory of a driver "attempting" or "trying" and therefore not fully culprable. It's not fact just a speculative piece but food for thought.

    "Hamilton had lost the lead to Rosberg at turn one when the race began and was trying to repass his team mate at turn four when the pair made contact.

    The stewards have announced the incident will be investigated after the race. It is likely to have far-reaching implications for the team as the pair are leading the world championship.

    Who do you think was responsible?

    Nico Rosberg
    Rosberg clearly came out of turn three slower than Hamilton and chose to come off the racing line to defend his position. He pulled all the way to the inside of the corner, leaving no space for Hamilton to pass him on the inside.

    Lewis Hamilton
    Hamilton committed himself to trying to pass Rosberg on the inside but as his team mate used the full width of the track he drove onto the grass. That loss of control sent his Mercedes spinning into his team mate’s car.

    I say
    Rosberg’s defensive move was very firm, but it was not sudden and it was not unpredictable: it was a clear, consistent change of direction. Hamilton should have expected he was not going to be given a clear run down the inside of the approaching corner.

    Hamilton didn’t hit Rosberg deliberately: he lost control when his car went on the grass. But he had the option of backing out of the move. That’s why I hold Hamilton primarily responsible."
     
    #66
  7. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I totally agree with the penalty Rosberg received for the incident, but I totally don't think it deserved penalty points. That's harsh.
     
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  8. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Totting up from Austria?
     
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  9. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Didn't he get 2 for that aswell?
     
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  10. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Not sure. If he did then I'd agree another 2 was harsh as Austria was far worse than Germany, mainly for dragging around a badly damaged car afterwards as well.
     
    #70

  11. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Now I'm not sure he did get points. I thought he had though.
     
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  12. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    It seems to devalue one penalty and overstate another. He got 2 points for each incident.
     
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  13. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it was because they deemed he had ignored his penalty from Austria that they felt they had to stamp on him again?

    The Austria incident looked worse because of the collision, Verstappen had more to lose by turning in on Rosberg, Hamilton didn't care as if they both went out then in theory he would have saved 7 points against Rosberg, as it worked out he did far better.

    Max should be given some credit for not doing what Hamilton did, though I think the actual corner and circuit characteristics made Max's view clearer than Hamilton's as Rosberg was also a lot further alongside when he straightlined at the apex. Would Rosbeg's penalty been worse if Max had made more of an issue of it and turned into him? Would have looked worse on camera.
     
    #73
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  14. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Roberg would have come out much better from that had they both gone out. He'd have maintained his lead. Happy days for him. :)
     
    #74
  15. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    I think that's why Lewis was happier to turn in as well, he had nothing to lose with a collision either.

    I'm sure that's not the sole reason for contact in one and not the other,but must be a factor.
     
    #75
  16. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    Smithers, you don't have to go off lane to imply that because I am a Lewis supporter that I cant make an impartial judgement based on what I saw. You said it was not about Lewis but yet he and Rosberg are the ones the examples are of. We have all seen the race and the onboard replays, and if Lewis had done exactly what Rosberg did, or any other driver my opinion would be the same.

    Now about the decisions of the stewards... I dont believe it's a case of picking and choosing who and when and where to give or not to give penalties. There are different officials at different races, and obviously one wouldnt see everything and interpret everything the exact was the others will. Maybe if the same officials were at every race things might have been different. but this is nothing new...check the Below post from April 2011 by Cosicave:


    Cosìcave:
    Ludicrous…


    I thought these idiotic decisions had become a thing of the past. The contact had nothing to do with Hamilton except entirely as a victim of Alonso's misjudgement. If he had 'lifted', I would not be saying this; but he did not lift!

    I agree with those who suggest it should have been left as a 'racing incident'.
    Someone suggested above that Hamilton 'lifts' and cites that there was a drop in engine revs, according to his/her own ear. (My apologies for forgetting who said this as I am now in the 'edit' box and cannot see the author's name). My hearing is perhaps not as good as it was but Hamilton is fully accelerating away from that corner, which I believe begins to go slightly uphill at that point.

    I do not believe he lifted at all and think it is mischievous to suggest otherwise, particularly as the telemetry was studied for this very possibility and found no evidence of it at all!

    :emoticon-0158-time:............................................................................. ..... .... ... ... .. . . . . . . . ~ ~ ~~ ͞©osìcave›͟
     
    #76
  17. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Naaah... he had a championship lead to take. So it turned out. :)
     
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  18. Big Ern

    Big Ern Well-Known Member

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    And yet you defend Hamilton to the hilt for doing exactly the same?
     
    #78
  19. SaintsForTheWin

    SaintsForTheWin Well-Known Member

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    And you utterly hate the man....
     
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  20. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Lewis Hamilton... Getting in the way of a good conversation since 2007.
     
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