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The conundrum that is Mousa Dembele

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by Dier Hard, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Que pasa mis amigos!

    As we all know we have a uniquely gifted Belgian who plays in the centre of the park known as Mousa Dembele.

    Last season we saw his best to date, he dominated the centre of the park, got the ball moving forward and even chipped in with a few goals. He was finally looking like that box-to-box top class midfielder we all knew he could be. He was deservedly rewarded with a new deal and should've been given a medal, not a ban, for trying to claw Diego Costa's eye out at Stamford Bridge last season.

    This campaign's been a bit of a weird one for him so far, he had to miss the first four games due to the ban he received, came back into the side once that was up and after a couple of games got an injury which kept him out a further few games and now he's missed another one through injury again and no one knows yet if he'll be fit for Burnley or not - The Mirror state he could be out beyond Christmas but that's not been confirmed and The Mirror is hardly gospel. During his spells in the side he hasn't been at his best either for the most part, he cost us a goal against Chelsea and in general there hasn't been that spark he usually provides.

    Part of the question I'm going to put to everyone is, despite the fact that on his day and fully fit he's an exceptional player and up there with some of the best in Europe, is he actually hindering our style of play due to constantly being in and out of the side?

    Injuries have been a nightmare for us this season, I've touched on that about 500 times in recent weeks and Mousa has been someone - not just this season - who's had more than his fair share. It's a common acknowledgement that being able to play the same XI for a consistent period often gets good results, the team gel and mentally everyone knows what everyone can do, telepathic partnerships strike up like we've seen with Alli and Kane last season, the full backs with their wide attacking midfielder, Toby and Jan bossing the back line and so on.

    When Mousa is in and out of the side, roles are having to be changed and the style has to be altered to accommodate different players, so is it now time to perhaps look at playing Bic Vic and Dier together more often with Mousa dropping to the bench? I get some don't like two DM's but having those two can give a lot more freedom to the attacking trio plus allows the full backs to maraud forward (not that Danny & Kyle don't do that anyway <laugh>), besides Dier has a very decent pass now and has a bit more about him than your regular DM, seems he's been learning from Toby when it comes to spraying long balls out. There's an argument for young Harry Winks too though, he's come on leaps and bounds this season and even last night when he replaced Alli he was much better than the man he replaced.

    So, in short:

    Is Dembele's niggling injuries hampering the side and would demoting him to the bench be more effective in the long run if it means keeping a regular pairing in the centre of midfield?
     
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  2. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind seeing Dier and Wanyama start together in the bigger games but I'd definitely rather a properly fit Dembele. Against more defensive sides we need to move the ball quickly so I think it's more important to have someone like Winks in the midfield. We're still not at our best in attack so I think any changes we make should be in order to improve that area of the pitch.

    As great as Rose and Walker have been I really think we need to look at getting our wide attackers to link up better with them. Lamela works well with Walker and I think Sissoko does too, although he needs to improve his end product, but none of Eriksen, Son, Alli and GKN seem to have done the same when playing wider. For me, this is the priority.
     
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  3. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    The use of three centre-halves might be better for team balance, if we've got both Dier and Wanyama in the first XI.
    We do need someone dictating play from the midfield in that scenario, though.
    Winks did a very good job of it last night when he came on.

    The other option as Dembele's replacement in his absence would be Sissoko, in my opinion.
    He's not a winger and works far better centrally, but is he up to the task defensively? Not convinced.

    Wildcard? Eriksen.
    Probably only suitable against weaker opposition, but he has worked there on occasion in the past.
    It might also solve the problem of having him and Alli in the same side.
     
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  4. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Yeah no doubt that if Dembele is fit he should start but he hasn't looked 100% fit all season. He's barely bossed a game since he's been in the side and if anything has been a hindrance in some matches, namely Chelsea where he cost us a goal.

    For me, the CB and CM pairings are vital for any side, they're the core positions and in my opinion you need two guys who can regularly play there. Last season Mousa didn't get many injuries while Dier remained injury free, they probably played around 30 Prem games with another and the partnership was great. This season Mousa has only completed 90 minutes in the Prem just three times... That's really poor and we need someone more reliable than that. If this season was a one off and we knew in general he stays clear of injuries I wouldn't be too fussed on the issue but he's generally suffered with knocks in each of his seasons with us. He's not a spring chicken any more either so his recovery from injuries will likely take longer than someone in their early twenties.

    I want nothing more than for him to remain free from injury but the situation we're having to deal with at the moment isn't ideal and I think for the benefit of the team, it might be best if he sits out for a while or at least kept out of the CM role. We could always rotate him in one of the front three positions. While I'm not saying we can rotate them every week, those attacking midfielders can be altered with a little easier (two remain, one change) yet still have positive effects.
     
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  5. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Dier does drop really well into that third CB role and while it may sacrifice a bit of style having him and Vic in the side, it adds a lot of substance in terms of rarely conceding. We've often been a team that plays in matches where we score lots but concede lots too, while it'd be nice if some of our attacking lads can up their games and make things more stylish, I'm quite happy knowing we're tough to beat.

    I still maintain though that once the squad is 100% or as close to it as can be (which is now near once Lamela returns) then the performances and style will vastly improve. A consistent side will improve with time, having to make 2-3 changes in nearly every match so far has been a nightmare.

    Winks is making a case for himself to be given more starts, with Alli's form and Mousa's injuries, there could definitely be space for him sooner rather than later in that XI.

    Sissoko is a good shout, providing he's partnered with Vic or Dier then we wouldn't have to worry too much about his defensive aspects so long as he was getting the ball forward effectively enough.

    As for Eriksen I prefer him as the 10 if I'm honest, like he's shown in recent games and recent seasons, he's a goal getter as well provider and I think he's pivotal to have further up if Kane isn't scoring.
     
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  6. Blue and White

    Blue and White Well-Known Member

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    I don't see Dembele being effective as a sub. We always said he needs to play regularly to be at his best. I just feel that if we rest him too much , he won't fit in and perform to his ability when he does play.
     
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  7. Citizen Kane

    Citizen Kane Danny Rosebud

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    Dembele has always struck me as the type of player who on his day is totally unplayable, but when not 100% fit or not 'in the mood', is one of the most noticeably poor players on the pitch, a complete passenger. Unlike others who can 'bluff' their way through a bad day in the office, I feel that Dembele needs to be on tip top form. Probably because his playing style is almost entirely 'close quarters', involving lots of dribbling and very short passes in normally very crowded areas. If his sharpness isn't up to scratch, he will stand out as the player who constantly gave the ball away in crucial areas (cf. the Chelsea match). Players like Winks have different styles. Lacking that physical strength, they will spend all game looking for pockets of space which they can then either dribble into or size up a medium to long range pass to get things moving.
     
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  8. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    If he's fit, then we play him. He's too good a player not to pick. He can be imperious and take games over in a way few others can replicate.

    I'm not a fan of Dier and Wanyama in midfield together. I'd go for Sissoko, as the nearest thing we have to Mousa or Winks as a better passer of the ball.
     
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  9. LockStock

    LockStock Well-Known Member

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    I have always felt that Sissoko can provide that cover for Dembele in the middle of the park. Recent performances have given me more hope. I don't rate Sissoko on the wings as much.

    Our general problem is that financially, we can only afford players who drift in and out of form. If Erikssen played at his best more consistantly, he'd have probably been snapped up by another team before joining us. I feel this is the same for Dembele.

    At our financial level, soon to rise with new stadium income, we are blessed to have Lloris and Alderwiereld the only two who have come in at peak level and been consistantly high performers.

    Rose, Walker and Kane are also good performers, but of course we spent time developing those players from an early stage.

    Dembele, Dier and Kane, were the only key players last season for whom we had no decent cover.

    Sissoko, Wanyama and Janssen (yeah, I know) cover those three postitions in my opinion.


    How well they do is another story.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  10. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    Is that true for Eriksen though ??

    I cannot recall whether people like Cove told us that he had consistency issues.
    In which case it may well have been the usual suspects felt they (then) had
    better players in their squads therefore no need for Eriksen.
     
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  11. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    It's often been said that the usual suspects all send their scouts to the same leagues at the same time, usually focusing on the Spanish and French leagues - which is why our scouting the Eredivisie, as we did for Verts, Eriksen and Janssen, is a sound strategy, as there's far less chance of fees being inflated either by a transfer auction breaking out as happened with Batshuayi, or if the club we were negotiating with caught wind of a potential bid from one of the moneybags clubs such as when Negredo's fee doubled overnight when City showed an interest.

    Similar can be said for Wimmer: while various Premier League clubs were scouting the Bundesliga, they were sending them to the usual places (i.e. Munich, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Gelsenkirchen, A German City) and completely ignored Koln, hence we could negotiate for Wimmer unimpeded
     
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  12. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    Fair comment.
    And as far as Spurs are concerned, long may the herd mentality continue.
     
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  13. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    That's where Leicester really messed up in the summer: the likes of Kante and Mahrez were both under the radar as, again, most club scouts in France are only based in Paris, Marseilles and Lyon instead of Caen or Le Havre - and this is where they made a couple of errors in judgment this season as Musa and Slimani were both on the radars or various clubs, especially Slimani given a lot of clubs have scouts in Lisbon to check up on both Sporting and Benfica, hence they found themselves breaking their club record transfer fee twice in rapid succession.
     
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  14. Citizen Kane

    Citizen Kane Danny Rosebud

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  15. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    No need to shout CK <laugh>
    Hazard who did little for most of last season until he was motivated to stop Spurs.
     
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  16. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    Football is an amazing game because it incorporates so many facets of human abilities. When playing chess, for example, running speed is not usually crucial to success and the ability to track a moving object is not high on the list of skills required to turn you into a grand master. In football by contrast, smell is about the only one of the 5 senses not crucial to success, unless you count sniffing out a goal chance. Many top players are lacking in one or more areas but have enough about them in certain facets of the game to enjoy much success. Examples? Teddy Sherringham, fairly slow in physical prowess but super fast in 'reading the game' in other words thought processes. Beckham, good at positioning himself and the ball on and off the pitch and not much else. Eriksen, great vision and ball skills but poor strength in holding onto balls.

    Moussa Dembele, our subject, has truly amazing abilities to dribble and hold the ball but seems to lack what we call a football brain almost entirely. He obviously responds well to management because he clearly needs guidance and has responded to it by producing some great performances. I don't think we can rely on him to guide the team through difficult periods in a game and if you couple that with his dominance in midfield it maybe shows why this Spurs team are a bit of an enigma.
    We don't really have a presence on the field in the shape of a great leader and because Dembele physically resembles one, but isn't one, he may well mask our need to address this big hole in our team.
    Toby and Dier, possibly, could both grow into this role, but I don't think they are there yet.
     
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  17. Citizen Kane

    Citizen Kane Danny Rosebud

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    <laugh>

    I had no idea how big that image was! I uploaded it on my mobile and had no idea what you were on about until now!

    Oh well, I've made my point...
     
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  18. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    You did <ok>
     
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  19. LockStock

    LockStock Well-Known Member

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    I hear you loud and clear! However, this just proves my point. Hazard didn't join us. If Eriksen was in top form more consistantly, we've all seen him go off the boil and frustratingly go missing in games, he'd probably be at a level higher, stat wise, than Hazard.

    Also, more flushed teams have a number of players of similar quality to rotate them, which might go some way to expaining the stats. Eriksen is pretty much our only option in that role, hence he gets plenty of game time and opportunities.

    Look at how many skilled, pass knitting, goal scoring, free kick taking AMFs that Chelsea have. They can't all play at once.

    We are, hopefully, just about arriving to that point where we have really string bench options as well as the first eleven.
     
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