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Should marriage be privatized ?

Discussion in 'Watford' started by colognehornet, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I have just been getting a bit of stick from my political comrades in arms for not being able to jump on the political bandwagon of supporting gay marriages - how can I when I am against marriage in all its forms ? Unfortunately I cannot ban it - if people want to do it in a church (or through the Union of boiler makers) then that is their thing, but it should only be recognized by that particular institution. I would suggest privatizing it - ie. the state no longer 'marries' people. No longer offers any legal privilege whatsoever - whether tax relief, joint health insurances, ability to visit your partner in hospital (that last one can be a problem in Germany - not sure about the UK.). For centuries fathers have been leading their daughters up the aisle like a prize cow for the most mercenary of reasons. The whole institution arose to protect property in the first place. Besides which I take a certain pride in being able to say that love alone has kept me and my partner together for nearly 30 years - without having to place the state between us. That is what marriage is - an admission that the love is so fragile that I need to throw the state between us for assurance.
    So, being sick to death of discussing Brexit, should marriage be privatized - ie. taken outside the state altogether ? They have done it with nearly everything else - so why not with this most private of things ? Or, does marriage still perform a social function which the state should support ?
     
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  2. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    NO....... it should be liberated!

    Interesting thought.... as we know marriage is a legal entity.... but as we move to a modern era... not sure if the legality of it is ultimately necessary. However would be a bigger headache than BREXIT to disaggregate it as marriage has an archetypal symbolism for people in terms of the good life, romance, spiritual union etc ... All the latter having little to do with the legilty of the union and could be sanctified anywhere by anyone one chooses.

    Having just been through one with one child and having another with a second next year..... I can quite clearly say that it is not worthy the £30k the two events will most likely ultimately cost. Consumerism... and a dream people have to fulfil
     
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  3. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I agree that marriage is good for the economy - after people get married their spending goes up for a couple of years, and I understand the symbolism of it for some people. Don't get the idea that I am having a go at all married people here. If people want to do it then fine but it is a private thing and I do not see why it should be recognized by the state. I just do not see why a couple should feel compelled to marry in order to get tax advantages - or, in some other countries, joint health insurances, or for any of the other legal (and sometimes professional) advantages it brings.
     
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  4. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    On the legailty i am in agreement and it would actually free many from the tryanny of an abusive or dysfunctional relationship.

    I think the state may have an interest in the status quo though.

    ... and what about mortgages which are more binding than the legal marriage for most..??
     
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  5. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I think to be honest that it's an old hippy thing <laugh> Those who went the central route through hippydom were rather anti marriage. If we/they did do it they were rather secretive about it - my mates at Uni thought me a bourgeous traitor for doing it first time around ! But those same hippies could not understand it when their kids later thought it was 'cool' to tie the knot - and made a big thing of it.
     
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  6. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    Oh horror! If there had not been weddings then it would have stopped me putting bread on the table. Because it kept me employed on a Saturday afternoon quite frequently, I was able to see dozens of let us call them interesting occasions. Brides and their bridesmaids arriving in wellington boots because there was snow on the ground, grooms supported by the best man after too long in the local pub, and family and friends with morning suits from Moss Bros. and trainers on their feet.
    Having been married for over 50 years I consider myself lucky and cannot feel that there was anything that forced me into getting into that state. Mind you social attitudes were different in those days, and it was not thought acceptable to spend some time living together before you married.
    In France the law makes it very difficult not to have an official status, be it married or a registered partnership. Inheritance laws are different to the UK which is why if you wish to buy an empty house you might find it is owned by thirty different people, all of them having to agree to sell it at a certain price. I could go on about the legalities. To disentangle that lot would be nigh on impossible.
    Legal marriages only take place here in the Town Hall by the local Mayor, but 70% of couples then go to the local church for a service that is similar to a blessing in the UK. The idea of wedding centres in stately homes is not possible.
    Next year I will find myself at Waddesdon Manor when my youngest is getting married there. There is no reason why she should wish to spend goodness knows what on having a change from Miss to Mrs, but it really does mean something to her, and I think in many cases it is having that special day when you commit to someone in front of your family and friends.
     
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  7. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it is a special day for many people Frenchie and I have no objection to people enjoying their day - the question however is - should married couples have any legal advantages over couples who simply live together ? If people want a great day out in the church with all the trimmings then ok. but I do not see what that has to do with the state.
     
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  8. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    I think that a lot of the laws regarding marriage in any country came into existence and have evolved as a means of protecting children. Some of these laws are strange in today's world, but until people think they no longer serve a purpose then like marriage or legal partnerships they will remain. The state will be involved in one form or another when there are disputes between couples who no longer wish to live together and cannot agree on what is fair to both of them and any children.
     
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  9. Hornet-Fez

    Hornet-Fez Well-Known Member

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    Not a gazillion miles from me! I got married at nearby Hartwell House, once home to Louis XVIII apparently. We'd been together 14 years (2nd time around having been teenage sweethearts) by then and happily married for 5 years now. It was a bit above our pay grade but we got a deal. Thoroughly recommend the Afternoon Tea there.
     
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  10. Saxet

    Saxet Well-Known Member

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    It was a necessity for me in order to get my Green Card. And before I get accused of marrying for economic benefit - I was doing rather well living the single life back in Watford and Westminster. Serves me right for chatting that Yank tourist up and sending her home with a souvenir she wasn't expecting. Arf, lol, etc.

    Still, it's seventeen years and two daughters later this Saturday. And I wouldn't have changed a thing.
     
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  11. Jsybarry

    Jsybarry Well-Known Member

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    I was in the position of being forced to get married by the state in order to get a job. My ex-wife was still living with her parents when jerzeypie was born and her mum kicked her out, as she felt that she couldn't cope with an old woman (my ex's gran who was nearly 90) and 2 young children in the house - I still can't understand why she kicked her only child out, but her ex, the father of jerzeypie's elder half-brother, was allowed to stay. She ended up in a home for young mothers, at the age of 22 and at least 5 years older than any of the others. Part of life in there was being shown how to do various household tasks before they eventually moved out, but she could do them having been to Uni. I was still at Uni, not moving here until jp was 6 months old and had to live with my prospective in-laws until my ex was allocated one of the on-site flats. She was on Parish welfare for her and jp but managed to stretch it for the three of us when I moved in with her. I had to find work asap even though the money wasn't for me, at the risk of them stopping the payments if I didn't by a certain date. It was almost impossible for someone who had just moved here to get work then, even though my fiancée and son were both born here, so we had to bring our wedding forward by 10 months - luckily, the registrar had a slot just 3 weeks later - I started work about 6 weeks after we got married and we had a blessing in church on the date we originally planned to have the wedding. We decided to make it a double celebration by having jp Christened at the same time.
    Sometimes religions can impose restrictions before marriage - my best man got married to a Jewish woman, but not being Jewish himself, had to attend the synagogue for a few months before they could get married. I appreciate that something similar applies in other religions, but he also had to stop eating the banned foods - difficult for someone who liked bacon, occasionally doing bacon rolls for breakfast when we were sharing a flat at Uni. On one occasion when he was engaged, I was over visiting my Mum and met up with him one evening, went out for dinner and a couple of his old school friends were also invited. He had a burger with bacon and none of us were to say anything to his then fiancée, if we did "she would've killed him". None of us did, as they celebrated their 12th wedding anniversary on Monday.
     
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  12. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    The fact that a church marriage is legally recognized means, in effect, that governments are empowering the clergy to serve as civil servants for this one act, and our signatures on marriage licenses carry civil legal authority. Is such a relationship between church and state desirable ? Interestingly a church marriage in Germany carries no legal recognition, which is why couples here often marry twice - once in the church and once at the registry office. The legal advantages of being married are obvious: eg. marital tax deduction, social security benefits, health insurance, legal decision making benefits, inheritance.......I could go on. The fact that the state supports marriage would only be justifiable if it were proved that children are better protected within this institution. Are married couples with children more likely to stay together than unmarried ones with children ? I don't think there is much evidence on this. Are a married couple more likely to honour their responsibilities in the case of adoption than a similar case involving an unmarried couple who sign joint legal guardianship ? Again there is no evidence. Do children brought up on eg. a Kibbutz (ie. brought up by the community) suffer for it in later life ? - the jury is out on that one. I resent the fact that my relationship (which has lasted for 28 years) is seen as, legally, of less value than a 3 way relationship of me, my partner, and the state. Particularly as this 28 years is significantly longer than my, or my partner's, previous marriages. The worst part is - that if my partner were very ill in hospital then I would have no automatic access to be at her side, and that sucks.
     
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  13. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that the act of marriage had been very important in different ways to a lot of us. I didn't marry until my 40s. And felt that I was now a member of the mainstream for having done so. I think we had to too for better tax arrangements. And Mme was very clear.. s he married me for my pension :-(
     
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  14. Mexican Hornet

    Mexican Hornet Well-Known Member

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    Happily married but had to get married in the church here - despite being never being baptised or religious - or the in-laws wouldn´t see just the legally binding civil marriage as "real". How ironic. Anyways, managed to get it done but hell of a lot of interviews with fathers and hoops jumped.

    Cologne - your question is a very difficult one, I´d say it could be privatized and shouldn´t make any difference as marriage is about love and respect. But then again ask my old man who´s been divorced a few times, he might say differently! However, the state is involved more for legal reasons, but I doubt that pressures people into marrying, well it shouldn´t...
     
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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017

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