http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38368144 Why have FIFA fined the four associations different amounts? I think the FA, IFA, SFA and FAW should tell FIFA to **** off, politely because you are all British.
I guess that the reason is that it is based on the different incomes of the 4 organizations. I would personally rather wear a white poppy, because it stands for the civilian dead in war - and the majority of those who die in war now are civilians. I do not know how they manage to decide what is or is not a political symbol - which criteria they use. Surely national flags and anthems could be interpreted as 'political' symbols. There are many clubs sides in Europe which have political symbols on their crests - and many fans who wave political flags and posters (Standard Liege, Livorno, Hapoel Tel Aviv to name just a few) - does this only apply to international matches ?
Could it be the new president saying, "look at me, this is the price you must pay for a non-corrupt president?"
The fines are punitive to make the point. However the FAW may feel aggrieved as it was the supporters who wore poppies as an everyday mark of respect at that time of year not just to the match: there was no official remembrance. If a steward tried to take my poppy away he'd get less than short thrift from me and probably a short left hook into the bargain. FIFA have still managed to f*** up. Again. Ends of bells that they still obviously are.
Not for civilians - unless different in Germany. White Poppies have been worn for over eighty years. They are distributed by the Peace Pledge Union (PPU). I have only worn white poppies for over 50 years. There are three elements to the meaning of White Poppies: they represent remembrance for all victims of war, a commitment to peace and a challenge to attempts to glamorise or celebrate war.
I agree that the white poppy has a larger symbolism than the one I indicated Leo. What I find difficult is the question of what criteria they use when deciding that something is a political symbol. Recently Celtic, St. Johnstone and Dundalk were fined quite heavily because some of their fans used Palestinian flags in their stadiums (which I have also seen at St. Pauli and Standard Liege) - if the Palestinian flag is considered as a political provocation then which other ones would be. What about the Israeli flags used at Spurs and Ajax Amsterdam ? I have also seen flags with Che Guevarra (and also Karl Marx) at Hapoel Tel Aviv, Calcio Livorno, Olympique Marseilles and several others. Just as you will regularly see Fascist symbols at Lazio, Olympique Lyons and Sporting Lisbon - but nobody, apparently, takes much notice of them. Football, particularly on the continent, has become quite political (referring here to fan bases rather than the clubs themselves). So how do they decide that the one is ok. but the other isn't. Would it be declared a political symbol if someone turned up to a match with an American flag ? To elaborate a little on this. Fifa is trying to pretend that politics and sport are separate where, in reality, politics is an integral part of international football. What are flags, national symbols, and national anthems other than politics ? Judged on this basis there is more reason to forbid the three lions crest on the England shirts than the poppy. Is the national anthem not political ? It extolls me to 'send her victorious' and that she should 'long reign over us'. If the criteria is that things which could be offensive to others are excluded from sport - then the national anthem is deeply offensive - to me.
This is a complicated subject. I do not know of a simple solution. My guess is that the flag of a country that is internationally recognised as such would be acceptable both for international matches and for teams representing their countries in international competition. I am not sure the use of a Palestinian flag by Celtic would be considered as anything other than a political provocation. FIFA are correct to try to prevent overtly political protests and the like. This is supposed to be friendly sport not war by another means. The poppy is difficult as it is not meant provocatively but as a national remembrance of dead in war - FIFA would have been wise to turn a blind eye as it is clearly something held dear to many in the UK. However a few thousand pounds is probably quite a good way to deal with it having got into the mess. Watford were fined more for failure to control their players a week ago. FIFA will now be under pressure to treat others in similar fashion.
If we are only going to accept flags which are internationally recognized Leo then Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao would have to be fined every week because they use Catalan and Basque flags every week - in fact Bilbao's strip is meant to resemble the Basque flag. I don't know where the borderline is. I think that there is actually a Palestinian football team which is acknowledged as such by Fifa. However, I agree, a Palestinian flag used by Celtic fans - particularly for a match against Ajax Amsterdam, can only be seen as provocation.
As I say I find it complicated and would not like to have to define the rules - but there do need to be rules. The use of a regional flag for a team of that region does not seem unreasonable. Perhaps FIFA should maintain a register of what flags and symbols are acceptable and "license" them.
It would be very nice to separate politics from sport completely Leo. But we are not talking about 11 men running around chasing a ball, but rather people representing something - in this case a nation (which is a political unit). Why is there eg. more rivalry between England and Germany than eg. between England and Belgium ? Does this not have something to do with history ? Why does Israel always play in European qualifying groups and not with its near neighbours - again, for political reasons. The only way you can break the link between politics and international football is to scrap the international game altogether. When it comes to club sides and politics - we saw this developing in the 70s when the NF. appeared to be becoming overrepresented on the Chelsea Shed and black fans appeared more inclined to support Arsenal or Spurs - the same is true between Villa and Brum. This has magnified since then. So much so that the choice of which team to support now is often partly decided by politics , particularly in mainland Europe. So, if you are a Punk in Hamburg, and are interested in football. then you would automatically go to St. Pauli rather than Hamburg SV - and so, concentrations of like minded fans develop.
There's more to it than the wearing of a poppy - part of the fines for the English FA & Scottish FA were to do with spectator behaviour (booing during the respective national anthems). I've heard, but not confirmed, that the fine for England also included a sanction for allowing a military ceremony on the pitch before the game. Fifa getting a bit above themselves in my opinion - and, yes, they should be told where to go.
I heard there was a room in the Bernabéu where 'fans' were allowed to keep racist flags and other paraphernalia. Something to do with Franco, I seem to remember.
There is indeed Andy, Athletico Madrid's fans are even worse from what I've heard. Many Spanish clubs are tainted by fascism amongst their so called ultras - the real proletarian club in Madrid is Rayo Vallecano, the only club in 'Spanish' Spain (as opposed to the Basque and Catalan regions) with a left wing support base.
