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Off Topic Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by ChilcoSaint, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

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    A bit like the way they use "alt-right" to dump anyone who is even vaguely right of the centre at the moment then.

    Yep I agreed with you there. I am talking about across the board quick point scoring. Drives me mad but like I said that is the world we live in so while people are happy to continue sharing memes and stories and getting angry without researching themselves (all sides of society are doing this) then the politicians have to try and steer clear of anything that can be taken out of context and be very careful in how they phrase what they are saying.

    All the time a single sentence will be picked out of a transcript and then presented without the context to challenge politicians on. Very easy to pick one sentence and turn it into a huge problem.
     
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  2. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

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    I've said it throughout this thread. Mainstream has not come to terms with the internet side of things yet and the outsiders have mastered it. UKIPs rise was because of the internet. Corbyn's lot are very quickly getting there but then they are "outsiders" within the Labour party. The Labour party itself hasn't mastered it yet.

    Trump's team mastered it. Le Pen/FN have mastered it.

    If you watched the Peston show earlier there was a very clear example of this. They did 2 simple separate posts on facebook. 1 was like this post if you like Jeremy Corbyn. The other was like this post if you like Theresa May.

    Corbyn got 3,600 likes and 548 shares. May got 253 likes and 2 shares.



    The key here is not the likes so much but the shares!!! Political parties that have motivated their online presence get lots more shares. I've said it for a long time. You don't need a huge political team these days when your supporters will keep sharing stuff all the time for you for free. This is what has made what the media/political bubble want to paint as "alt-right." The yobbo mob saluting in halls or the Militant Left wing Council meeting can;t change much at all.

    Those that have been labelled "alt-right" but are nothing to do with any Nazi or white supremacist action are all over the internet. Momentum and their followers are all over the internet. FN are all over the internet.

    An easy explanation as to how the internet is swaying things. A vote for goal of the month comes up on Sky's page and who will win? The best goal? or the one who had the most sharers etc? We do it on here. Put up the link and tell everyone to vote for our player.

    Those are just the shares within facebook!!. Like above with the football "shares" that we see in our forum, Momentum will have been sharing that on their platforms. The Tories and the main Labour party are way way behind in trying to get to grips with the power of the internet.

    I wouldn't call him my hero but I have extreme respect for Mandelson. In that era he was THE supreme politician and held all the power behind Blair. So he is one of my favourite politicians (probably for all the wrong reasons.)

    He is George Osborne's idol too which is probably why Osborne tried to model himself as the Tory version being king of strategy and kingmaker to Cameron. Osborne was not a patch though and was easily brushed aside by Gove who is much closer to being a Mandelson than Osborne is/was.

    Mandelson and Gove are unpopular however unlike other politicians they get the job done. Always get the tough jobs that are going to make them unpopular but they are the go to men for tough jobs.

    Gove will be back. There are far too many "reactionary" politicians at the top these days (including May and Fallon) and not enough pro-active politicians that don't u-turn at the slightest hint of unpopularity.
     
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    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  3. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    I genuinely though "alt.right" was a term coined by the far right themselves to make them sound a) a bit hip and edgey, and b) less threatening?
     
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  4. Osvaldorama

    Osvaldorama Well-Known Member

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    Haha, I know what you were trying to say, and I agree. I sort of muddled two posts together.
    The point-scoring and name-calling is pathetic from ALL political sides. I just mentioned that the IRA stuff to Corbyn as an example. Labour obviously do it too.

    I just sit there, listening and think:
    "people's lives are literally in your hands based on the decisions you make - and all you care about is trying to save face".

    The way some politicians act is truly pathetic. Life is never black and white, it mostly occurs in that grey area between the two. They should be able to act like adults to compromise for the good of everyone.
     
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  5. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

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    alternative right was a term coined by Spencer's "mentor" Paul Gottfried." Spencer shortened it to alt-right probably because it sounds modern.

    However what the alt-right was originally and what it is these days is different. alt-right has been utilised as another branding term to label people who aren't mainstream whether they be the meme crowd that aren't racist yet use racism as way to offend (despite them being of all different races anyway) or those that are just "renegades" or people who consider themself not to be mainstream (like not Lib/Lab/Con in the UK) and so adpot the label because it is meaningless.

    It is meaningless because the mainstream have done what they always do and utilise a "toxic" group to brand lots of people who are just not mainstream.

    Like I said. Spencer's "alt-right" is a few hundred idiots raising their arm in a hall. They meet up, they have gatherings. They have zero influence on the internet. The part of the "alt-right" that does have influence because of its numbers across the internet is not Spencer's group of twonks in that hall.

    Spencer's group is akin to somethng like the UK national front or BNP. teeny tiny. The rest of the alt-right is lots of non mainstream that have views on the left and right. They don't fit into any specific label because there is such a vast variety in opinion within what is now considered "alt-right." Point being that the media and mainstream are desperate to brand anything right or left of mainstream as something and lots of people don't care anymore because of all the labels.

    So I might get called alt-right because I don't marry up to the neo-liberal only acceptable path. Corbyn's lot are called marxists and communists because they don't marry up to the neo-liberal only acceptable path. Progressives quickly label everything that disagrees with them. Progressives idea of progress is along their narrowly defined line. No deviance from that line. Anyone who wants to deviate the slightest amount is extreme.

    So UKIP are called fascist. Socialists are called communists. People that get labelled have become sick of the labels and ignore them. Instead of spending hours denying it is much easier to say "OK" and get on with what you were doing.

    The mainstream is so confused. The BBC toured Europe to interview people in many different countries to then gleefully announce "the "alt-right" seem to contradict each other and have no fixed set of beliefs. One arm doesn't know what the other arm is doing." The reporter was so happy about the disarray.

    Point being that they assume the "alt-right" is what they have defined it as. They try and equate the "alt-right" to how political parties work when it isn't a political party. Most of the people that are calling themselves alt-right are just accepting the label rather than waste their time denying it. What is the point when mainstream will just keep repeating it if you keep denying it. So you will find lots and lots of people who accept the label alt-right that disagree with each other and are not at all racist or white supremacist.

    And because the "progressive left" or "Centrist", or whatever nice name they want to call themselves this year, have been brandishing the labels then the "outcasts", which are what the alt-right in this day and age really is, return the favour and we now have lots of people using the centre's tactics of grouping and labelling. So I will say Leftists, Liberals etc.

    Am I "alt-right"? I don't think so, I'm definitely not on the same book let alone page as Spencer's lot, but I don't fit into the Lib/Lab/Con model nor do I support UKIP. I might vote Tory but that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. The way world politics are can you ever see a fringe party challenging at the top table? Nope so it is much easier to gather your numbers and influence the major parties. And then you get the Tories pushing slightly to the right where they should be and Labour being influenced by Momentum. I do my fair share of sharing and commenting. Not wholesale though. I pick and choose what I agree with.

    Hence why if you look back pages when Corbyn's manifesto came out I said that it will appeal to many. I don't think it will work but it does appeal. And I don;t like Fallon nor May that much. To me she has so far been very good on Brexit (talk) and I agree about Grammar schools but the rest is the same nothingness as when she was home secretary. If people remember back at the Leadership contest I was pushing for Leadsom. Gove was never a contender there. He stood to stop Boris and then make sure Crabb and Fox were eliminated. Before Leadsom announced she would stand I was part of a group that pushed support for Leadsom. Nothing to do with Tories. We ended up with lots of shares and then people also started their own Leadsom groups. 4 days later she announced. Nearly worked ;)

    Does that make me "alt-right?" I am in that sphere where I am one number that can add to lots of others and large numbers can then push things much further. Social media means a hundred people can muster support very quickly and turn that few hundred into thousands of shares and likes.

    It isn't about the left or the right doing it. It is the non mainstream doing it. Corbyn isn't mainstream. Leadsom wasn't mainstream. We had lots of left people that supported Brexit joining in the Leadsom push!!! Nothing to do with left or right. Non mainstream types utilising what they can do from their armchair to influence things.
     
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  6. SaintinSerbia

    SaintinSerbia Annoying Twat

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    I'm not sure how effective social media is (I'm talking facebook really which apparently 25% of the worlds population has now signed up to). I know where I stand, right behind Jeremy Corbyn. My dear "friends" can post what they like. I will admit that I've unfollowed everyone who has posted pro Tory stuff so that i can sleep at night and only see nice pro Jeremy stuff that lets me sleep at night. That doesn't prevent them from replying to my Jez is great posts (which they seldom do cos he is great) but at least I am not subjected to Britain First bollocks every time I open facebook.
     
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  7. SaintinSerbia

    SaintinSerbia Annoying Twat

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    I'm not reading all that cos you said neo again!
     
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  8. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

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    I don't get any "Britain First bollocks" on my facebook!! I don't follow anybody other than my very close circle of friends and close family. I will follow a page like Leave.eu, vote leave, Labour leave, Grassroots Out during the referendum and share away the posts/banners/memes I think are advantageous to the cause and ignore the silly ones or ones that I don't think are going to achieve the desired outcome. Then on 24th June I unliked and unshared all of them. I had no use for them then.

    4 days later I followed all the Tory leadership ones and setup a Leadsom page. used #Leadsom4leader (I'm not on twitter) which a day later was everywhere (maybe others had the same idea.)
     
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  9. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a Facebook account. Never have.
     
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  10. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

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    We all know what a liberal is. And I mean a classic liberal. Neo-liberals are much closer to classic liberals than people like to think. Globalism IS the Liberal economic model of uber capitalism. social values of equality. They add the Neo-liberal statement because they don't want to be associated with the whole classic liberal economic model of unfettered and unregulated trade completely free of government interference.

    T'was they who called themselves Neo-liberals, not those who oppose them labelling them. Neo-liberalism used to be a centre right - right thing yet it is now THE norm. THE Centre. Progressive parties are Neo-Liberals:

    An excerpt from a Guardian article (link below.) Neo-Liberalism IS globalism!!

    "After Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan took power, the rest of the package soon followed: massive tax cuts for the rich, the crushing of trade unions, deregulation, privatisation, outsourcing and competition in public services. Through the IMF, the World Bank, the Maastricht treaty and the World Trade Organisation, neoliberal policies were imposed – often without democratic consent – on much of the world. Most remarkable was its adoption among parties that once belonged to the left: Labour and the Democrats, for example. As Stedman Jones notes, “it is hard to think of another utopia to have been as fully realised.”

    It may seem strange that a doctrine promising choice and freedom should have been promoted with the slogan “there is no alternative”. But, as Hayek remarkedon a visit to Pinochet’s Chile – one of the first nations in which the programme was comprehensively applied – “my personal preference leans toward a liberal dictatorship rather than toward a democratic government devoid of liberalism”. The freedom that neoliberalism offers, which sounds so beguiling when expressed in general terms, turns out to mean freedom for the pike, not for the minnows.

    Freedom from trade unions and collective bargaining means the freedom to suppress wages. Freedom from regulation means the freedom to poison rivers, endanger workers, charge iniquitous rates of interest and design exotic financial instruments. Freedom from tax means freedom from the distribution of wealth that lifts people out of poverty."


    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
     
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  11. SaintinSerbia

    SaintinSerbia Annoying Twat

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    you said neo again!
     
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  12. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

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    What do you want me to call them? Centrists? Globalists? Progressives?
     
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  13. SaintinSerbia

    SaintinSerbia Annoying Twat

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    no idea didn't read it! you'll have to deal with people like me who see good people who believe the wealth generated by a country should be used to help the weaker members of society and have no need to know what Centrists? Globalists? Progressives? are. That's all just blab for people that want to talk politics with no end and no common sense solutions. I couldn't give a **** what a neo liberal is!
     
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  14. The Ides of March

    The Ides of March Well-Known Member

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    If anyone here lives in the Southampton Itchen constituency, all Lib Dems and Greens need to get behind the Labour candidate to get rid of the awful and arrogant Royston Smith. Come on, Itchen, vote Labour!!
     
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  15. Missing Lambo

    Missing Lambo Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, well it's only cos you haven't got any mates, you loser. That's what my daughter told me when I told her I would more happily vote UKIP than have a Facebook account. Who thought having kids was a good idea?

    Trouble is, like splitting the atom, Facebook can be a force for good. This same daughter (she didn't really say the above, but I reckon she's thought it during my paranoid moments) uses Facebook to share practice as a doctor with people in the same field. Apparently this is common, and she'll often tell me how she's been able to diagnose a rare condition with the help of other professionals.

    So while we Luddites must stick together, mate, and send messages through smoke signals and semaphore, this is the way of life 2017. I cannot imagine that Jeremy himself is at the heart of the social media campaign. In Chester it is noticeable that there are dozens of bright young people who are media savvy running the Labour party campaign, while the Tories still seem dependent upon the WI. If this continues, Corbyn may not win this time, but I'm not betting against him or a younger follower doing do in 5 years time.
     
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  16. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    The gap between the Conservatives and Labour seems to be narrowing massively. I think that the social media element might not be properly reported and it would not surprised me in the least if Jeremy Corbyn won. No one believed he would be elected leader initially and everyone thought he was fatally weakened by the failed leadership challenge. As I understand things, it is the younger demographic who are massively behind what labour is trying to do and I feel that this is what will eventually swing things in his favour. His following amongst the youth who seem him offering something entirely new is hugely appealing. If he had more charisma, he would be ahead by now and I don't feel that he has been helped by the likes of Dianne Abbott performing so poorly. Despite the odds, Corbyn's stature is improving during this campaign and the Tory attempts to thwart him seem to backfire and appear to be ungracious.

    It has been a terrible campaign for the Tories so far and maybe the Liberals and UKIPers will be increasingly irrelevant as the election continues. The momentum is clearly now with Labour and the issue with the elderly last week seems to have fatally undermined much of her traditional support. For a generation of people who futures have been blighted by the Brexit decision, I feel that Labour will offer some sort of salvation in 2017. They are continually being vilified, described as no hopers and led by a leader we are told no one likes, yet the reality is actually the opposite and Labour seem rejuvenated. I think Corbyn's sincere attitude is resonating with voters who have been disenchanted by the last 40 years and is inspiring the next generation of voters. Putting nationalisation at the heart of his manifestos was a masterstroke and from being so-called "no hopers" I feel that what Jeremy is offering is akin to the freshness of New Labour albeit far less cynical and far more genuine. I don't feel that a Labour victory is as unlikely as many believe. There is a "silent majority" out there who seem him as a kind of Obama -like hope against the way the world is going.
     
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  17. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Good analysis Ian. I actually think the faux pas of Diane Abbott will be irrelevant as well. Theresa May has from the start made this election almost a presidential contest between her and Corbyn, so the Tories can't have it both ways by picking on the other personalities in the Labour ranks. So far, Corbyn has come through some very exacting interviews with Andrew Neil, Robert Peston and so on with flying colours, whereas May seems like she's doing her best to throw the lead the Tories started with away.
     
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  18. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong, using the internet to share work or professional things is great. I use a couple of what I call "more professionally focused" media methods for that. Facebook for me is still a social hotbed of photos, eating cake and bitching about stuff - the professional side can get lost.

    I'll stick to my other ones thanks :)
     
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  19. greensaint

    greensaint Well-Known Member

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    You do realise you're missing the chance to be 'poked' by someone you hardly know ?

    Took me quite by surprise it did.
     
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  20. The Ides of March

    The Ides of March Well-Known Member

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    I loved New Labour and the likes of Alan Milburn, Peter Mandelson, Tony Blair, Robin Cook and the forefather of all that, Roy Jenkins. And I quite like the traditional Labour of Harold Wilson. The beauty of Corbyn is that he is presenting something quite radically different to NL, which I have to admit has had its day, so back to a more traditional meaning of what Labour was all about but in a modern context.

    Being a registered voter in Fareham I will have to go Green to have any hope of making inroads in that inbred Conservative constituency.
     
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