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Off Topic Political Debate

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I am not disagreeing with your overall point but just do not think religion in England is remotely important any more. I think it is too much of a generalisation to defiine Catholics and CofE as being in favour of one party or another when the depth of their religious conviction and actions are shallow. I repeat that I suspect you could find a stronger correlation between some sports - say squash or cricket - and voting intentions.
    Your Liverpool and Glasgow examples are almost certainly examples of poorer areas being more socialist - the fact that they also happen to have more Catholics then skews your statistics.
    If you are correct then presumably southern Europe being Catholic is socialist and northern Europe being protestant will lean to the right. Is it really that simplistic?
     
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  2. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I am rare :) Certainly not well done - and equally not "blue"
    I left out 2 more I have voted for - Social Democrats and Liberals back in their day.
     
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  3. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    With reference to your last paragraph Leo, I have not said that Protestants in general tend to be right wing or Conservative - but restricted this to the Church of England, which does have a tendency towards Conservative voting. This may also be the case amongst Evangelists in the USA. It is not the case amongst the Lutheran churches in Scandinavia. This varies from country to country - I have already said that the Labour Party has a partly Methodist history. The same is true of Catholicism - it can be a revolutionary force in some countries (Liberacion theories, the Jesuits etc.) in Latin America, a reactionary force in others, or a conservative force in some others eg. Germany. The correlations may be different in each country, but they are there. I don't know if you know much about Germany - but it has the most equal balance of Catholic and Protestant populations in the World. The Evangelical part is the north and almost all of what was once East Germany. The Catholic part is the south and the Rhineland (and most of the Ruhr). Cologne is a major bastian of loose, liberal, Catholicism and the 'border' to the north runs through Munster - to the east it is much closer - only a matter of about 40km. The town where I live, Engelskirchen, is right on this border and is about 35% Catholic and 29% Protestant - the eastern part is more Protestant, and the West Catholic. The positions are the reverse of what I described in England - namely protestants appear more inclined to the SPD (Germany's ecquivalent of the Labour Party) and Catholics more to the CDU. We live in the Catholic area and profit from the fact that there is no strong SPD tradition amongst them - so, if they don't like the CDU then they vote Green which is good for us. On a national level there is a very real difference between party loyalties in Hamburg and eg. Munich - though there is little difference between them in socio economic terms. Those shirkers in Bavaria even get twice as many public holidays as they do in Hamburg or Berlin, because of their religion.
     
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  4. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I know you still have a lot of connexions to the UK Cologne but I wonder whether the greater prevalence of religion to matter on the continent is influencing your views. I take your point about CofE as opposed to Protestant. Given the royal basis for the CofE and the suppression of Catholicism in England it is unsurprising that perhaps the more affluent members of society - royals, aristocracy and the like will have a background of CofE. However I just don't see the man on the Clapham Omnibus giving a hoot about what religion he was born into. Apart from the very few who still regularly attend church, religion just does not really feature in English life. Amongst churchgoers of all faiths I would expect a greater compassion than others and so would expect a greater leaning to the left. The aristocratic CofE members would be right wing whatever their faith.
    I do not disagree with any of your historical perspective.
     
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  5. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    On the whole I agree about the man on the Clapham omnibus (though I've never been to Clapham so I don't know for sure - he may be a Rastafarian). Certainly the bigger religious groupings will have lots of hangers on and pro forma members. I suspect though that the smaller sects, such as Pietist or Anabaptist ones would be different and may have a stronger correlation to political choice. Some sects I know abstain from politics altogether - because 'voting' implies an acceptance of the secular state. With others there is a direct relationship - and this relationship appears to stem from doctrinal differences, the most obvious being the relationship between Quakerism and either socialism, environmentalism or 'passive' anarchism. As I said earlier there is a very strong connection between Quakerism and Green Party membership. At one time there was also a very strong relationship between Welsh Methodism and Labour Party membership. A few years back I was in the Pump House people's history museum in Manchester - where they have the World's largest collection of trade union banners. I was amazed to see how many of them included religious symbols or imagery drawn from biblical scenes.
     
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  6. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    It would seem that there will a referendum in Surrey this May. The Tory council has proposed a council tax increase of 15% and this triggers a vote. The council say that their funding from government makes it impossible to carry out the job in a proper manner, as more has been passed to them to sort out, and the money they receive has been drastically cut. Social care represents a large part of the budget, and it will now been seen how many of the electorate would pay more for a better service. If this increase was approved it could cost the average householder an additional £20 per month, a very unwelcome cost for some with all the increases in prices just starting to filter through.
     
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  7. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    If brexit was not such a distraction the NHS and Care system would now be dominating the political system. The stupid thing is that party politics does not really come into it. There is virtually nobody in this country that does not value our NHS and want to see it perform well - the care system is falliing into a mess as people live 10 years longer than a generation ago.
    If ever there was a time for cross party support for a total rethink of the combined NHS / Care system - how it operates, its efficiencies, its limits and its funding - this is it
     
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  8. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately Brexit will dominate British Politics for the forseeable future - it has developed it's own dynamic. It is also, at the moment, a one sided Brexit which talks only about possible free trade deals, state of the pound, investments etc. Behind all of this is a human story, which has been somehow sidestepped. There are 5 million law abiding citizens whose legal status has been placed in jeopardy by the Brexit result. Can a person become 'illegal' overnight, through no fault of their own ? Nobody can really imagine the forced movement of millions of people in both directions - we are not talking about the partition of India here. Where are the assurances to the 3 million EU. citizens in the UK. and the 2 million Brits living in the EU. ? And why is this human issue not top of the agenda ? Can unrestricted legal residence (once given) be taken away, can people be disenfranchised (EU. Elections) through no fault of their own ? Are these not human rights issues which are protected by international law ? Why the silence on this ? Nothing is being said, and so people are fighting their own individual battles - looking at ways of changing their nationalities etc. What of so called 'acquired rights', and why is the situation not being made clear on this ?
     
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  9. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Theresa May has repeatedly tried to resolve the issues of the 3.3 million EU nationals living in the UK and the 1.2 million Brits living in the EU. The problem as I understand it has been one or two influential politicians in the EU that has blocked a simple agreement to let the status quo remain. It would be a disaster to agree to the EU nationals having the right to remain in the UK only for the EU to use the Brits as part of their bargaining position.

    Surely nobody believes this cannot be solved amicably?
     
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  10. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Nobody should be using human beings as part of their bargaining position - and I would expect, in these circumstances something like a unilateral declaration, thus throwing the other side into a moral dilemma. Also there is the question of international law on this one - can a human rights issue such as this be decided solely by the UK. and the EU ? The Vienna Convention covers the theme of 'acquired international rights', is external to both the EU. and the UK. though they are both signatory to it. The question is - can this theme be negotiated by the EU. and the UK, or is it out of their hands ?
     
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  11. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Imagine the UK took the moral high ground and guaranteed the rights of the 3.3 million EU residents in the UK. If the rights of the 1.2 million Brits in Europe were then not similarly protected they would rightly ask why they had been abandoned. May's insistence that this agreement is done simultaneously and a.s.a.p. is the correct policy. This could easily be done immediately.
     
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  12. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. I know it seems like we are using EU citizens here as bargaining chips but that accusation is equally applicable to the EU side. At least the UK has made its position clear - we have no intention of kicking anyone out. The EU could end this by dropping its unilateral and rather unfair insistence that this is part of brexit negotiations. All they have to do is make the same statement that the UK has. The detail and so on can then wait till Article 50 is triggered. Can you imagine the criticism the government would receive - rightly -if it unilaterally declared EU citizens rights and then the EU denied ours. People like Frenchie are as important as EU citizens in the UK. It is daft to resolve only one half of the issue.
     
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  13. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I do agree. It is not secret that I think Corbyn is bad for Labour which is bad for democracy.
    I do not want to stop all jibes against politicians and if you use your favoured comrade Corbyn tag occasionally then we should all accept it as political give and take. Remember though that if people see and respond to the "comrade" bit your real message gets lost. Surely the key point you want to make is what a disaster Corbyn actually is.
    I do not want to delete posts, ban people nor even tell people what to do on here - yet I value you as a voice crying alone in the wilderness. You are the sole flag carrier at the moment for a swathe of opinion - on brexit the majority opinion. If people put you on ignore and do not bother to respond to you then we lose that voice. Try not to let your fun side stop you getting some good points across.
     
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  14. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    I will try my best to keep 'comrade' firmly in the closet.

    It is a shame however that the majority of decent Labour MP's feel under threat from the extreme left leadership and party membership. Many will resign before the next election or face deselection from momentum infiltrators at local party level. It is disgraceful that the only effective opposition the Tories face in parliament is from the opportunistic SNP.

    Politics will always be confrontational but this can be kept within decent boundaries. Although, in my opinion, I have always only resorted to insults in kind I would like to wipe the slate clean and apologise for any comments which may have offended. I can assure all that my comments are from sincerely held views and not just to 'wind up', well maybe just Cologne a couple of times!!

    I'm sure if we all met in a pub we would get on very well, lefties, sandal wearing Liberals and righties. Our varied life experiences should be able to greatly add to these threads.

    Hopefully I will not be reported by any sensitive Liberals? :emoticon-0105-wink:
     
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  15. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Posts in the vein of this one SH I am sure will be very welcome and may get you answers from people. I hope if anyone currently has you on ignore they will suspend that for a while and join in a proper discussion.
    I do not like the way Labour has gone under Corbyn. In fact his views themselves are not the problem - it is the way his support is being built. On a sort of cult basis - I did not like Tribune back in the 70s / 80s and I do not like Momentum now. I think they are a radical party within a party and having got their people into positions of power they will dominate the Labour Party. Ultimately as I see Britain as only mildly left of centre in the main this means it will be difficult for them to gain power. Years and years of control by one party is not good - parties tend to put in their best ideas in early years in office then go stale - or if in for a long time can get quite extreme - either is not good.
     
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  16. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    It is almost certain that no country will want to start kicking people out. The only people who I have seen talk about it are extremists on the right wing of politics. This is only the tip of the iceberg however, and the simple idea that the issue can be skated over is just not correct. I can go on at length about this, but will just give one example. A professional person such as a lawyer, doctor, nurse etc. currently have their professional qualifications recognized wherever they choose to be within the EU. Will this still be the case? No one knows. It is these sort of questions, and there are hundreds of them that will have to be decided, and this could take years, not months.
     
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  17. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I understand that there are many complications - but I think for your sake it is best that the UK do not simply roll over and declare that EU citizens have rights but wait and make sure that you are given reciprocal treatment - it is not holding EU citizens hostage nor using them as bargaining chips but looking after UK people abroad.
     
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  18. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    I am hopeful that things will turn out alright in the end, but it is not right to see MEPs from around Europe taking up our case and trying to confirm the rights we were given, while the members from the UK do and say nothing.
     
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  19. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    There are many complications ahead Leo. If you make a deadline eg. the day of the referendum, or when all negotiations have been completed, or somewhere in between - and you say those who were here before that date can stay, those who come after have no rights of residence. How do people actually prove that they were officially resident on a certain date ? You do not have to actually register residence in the UK, as in some other countries - also, there is the problem of residence permits (namely they have not been necessary for EU. citizens in Britain under the present rules). So how do EU citizens prove that they were legally in Britain before the deadline ? The easiest position would be to say that those already in possession of a national insurance card can stay indefinitely - but, however you do it will be complicated, and will produce many grey areas. Everybody knows that there is not going to be a rounding up and deportation of so many people. On the other hand, there is no country which wants the sudden return of millions of their own nationals - all disgruntled, and all with voting rights.
     
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  20. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    It is leading EU politicians blocking immediate reciprocal arrangements. Clearly the UK is not to blame whatsoever.
     
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