Off Topic More London Attacks

Go and talk to the victims of Manchester families and look them in the eye and say that I'm sure they will agree.

 

His post stated nothing about the bile you posted. **** off back to your scouse board

 

This is why my wife doesn't like to leave the house without her gun.

Seriously though, thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families. I don't really have any answers because I don't understand it in the first place. The only thing I would say is that the coppers ought to spend less time searching social media for "rude" tweets and more on their ****ing job; but I'm not in charge so it's not my call.

 

All I know is that **** is terrible.

Freddd - I know you probably didn't be mean to, but you're almost trivialising it with those analogies. I just don't think they stack up. Yes people drink and have fights, people get injured and occasionally die. I just don't think it's even the same ballpark as what is going on.

We are ignoring the obvious if we say things like that. This is on the increase. The numbers involved are not small. That is without getting into those we don't know about.

Others are going far too extreme. You can't fight extremism with more extremism.

I can't offer a solution. The worst two things we can do is are:

A) overreact and act as they want by taking up arms

B) do nothing, all hold hands in some liberalist little pissant fest pretending it will all go away - it won't, wise up FFS.

We need to be smarter than this. We need the people charged with protecting us to rethink their policies which have led to this. Whether that be how we behave in our own foreign policy, how we police those who have brought this to our shores through converting our young muslims born here, how we control our borders in the future, how we cut our police forces and other security forces, how we deal with those we are 'watching' who are partaking in information sharing with the intent to harm (even in its infancy as watching isn't working) - there are so many things which need assessed. I'm afraid its been a slow process which has seen this fester, and it will be a slow chipping process to reverse it or even come close to. Going all Team America on this is a bit crazy to say the least, force won't work.

The government will want to ride out this storm in the midst of an election. Its a shame none of them will stick their head above the parapet and say "this is what we're going to do". All you will get is "we are going to review our security strategies" etc etc.

All I can say is I've never felt more anti religion in all my days. I've been an atheist since I've been old enough to think for myself. I recognise the vast majority of religious people across the world are peaceful. But this ****e is born out of this fruitcake archaic religious drivel however you want to dress it up. The sooner it all dies out the better off we would be. Of course these nuts would just be around in a different guise, using a different vehicle for their ****e. I just hope that when we move on from all this daft bollocks we have become more intelligent and have less fruitcakes. Well that is if we haven't killed our planet by then of course.

Having mused on all that, I am led back to my first sentence.

 

^^ Well said

 

Bile?
Try re reading his post then mate.

'**** off back to your own board' wouldn't surprise me if you said something similar to anyone not of British origin out in the real world it seems.

 

The hatred videos are readily available on youtube, twitter and 100's of other websites, they're not banned, any 14 year old kid can log on and easily access a video from a hate preacher screaming on about death to the west. So firstly, these need to be removed. I'm against censorship and all for free speech, but when that free speech is xenophobic, homophobic, sexist or threatening violence and death, it should be removed.

Migration, start securing our boarders and monitoring people who are a risk. If anyone (British born or foreign) want to travel to Libya, Syria or are found to travel to Turkey to then gain access to such countries, they should not be permitted a return.

Jail - this is not the way forward. The Lee Rigby killers were converted in jail. With the privatisation of these facilities, its more punishment than rehabilitation, companies like G4S looking to make a quick buck by providing shoddy services, thus leading to a lack of monitoring and rehab and young mentally vulnerable men easily manipulated and converted into soldiers.

Family/mosques. I think we should stop permitting the building of these. I live between two which are both I would say 200 yards away from me. the pub opposite was purchased by one mosque too as they did not want alcohol consumption outside their mosque. I genuinely have no issue and find the majority of Muslims respectful, but a high proportion fail to report radicalisation. A high percentage do not work, I believe over 80% of Muslim women claim some kind of benefit.

Migration needs to suit the needs of the country. when there is available work and housing, when there is a requirement for a specialist skill set, not to the detriment of our prisons, schools, hospitals, GP surgeries, house and rental prices, available jobs and wages.

Any family members of any attacker, hate preacher etc should not be provided with any benefits and perhaps even the right to remain in the country. There needs to be a further punishment, these attackers are happy to die, knowing the British taxpayer will subsidise their family, pay for their housing food and education and that does really sit right with me.

 

^^ More common sense

 

It's pretty simple really. Depends on what kind of person you are at the end of the day "yeah they're maniacs attacking us, but it's only few, and they're only killing like 50 people a year, while 500+ die in road traffic accidents, and there's nothing we can really do anyway so... uh, just carry on".

Or if you're genuinely pissed off that some maniacs murder people in the street and we just carry on and don't retaliate properly. Personally, it pisses me off. Some **** happens, you can't do anything about. But rounding these guys up, especially if they're already known, their action are avoidable, if only we accept having to make some uncomfortable decisions that might make us look less than perfect.

 

Jails are perfectly fine if you never plan on letting these people out again. Call it supervised living.

Do what israelis do, demolish the houses of terrorists. Take ever their property.

 

Prisons are great, but I don't wanna pay 30-40k a year housing and feeding scum. The taxpayer shouldn't have to bear this cost.

Whilst the celebs and politicians are secure with their high walls, security cameras, bullet proof cars and private security officers, nothing will change. It's not until their safety becomes under threat will we see something change, but by then it may be too late.

We have a housing crisis as it is. Perhaps instead of demolishing their homes we provide them to more needy people? First time buyers who work as civil servants such as Police, NHS staff and ex-military at a hugely discounted price?

 

From Abu Huairah: 'By him in whose hands my soul is. I would love to be martyred In Allah's cause and then come back to life and get martyred, and then come back to life again and get martyred and then come back to life again and get martyred.'

I would like to see this quote used on the TV more, rather than “If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people' because that quote does not tell the whole story as many of us know the full quote which in fact:

'We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.'

When I see Imams coming out and using the selective quote I know that they surely couldn't be that ignorant of their own holy book which must mean they are lying - which is hugely concerning. The quote itself is somewhat immaterial but when used by apologists it should be called out whenever it occurs.

 

On the jail thing - what would you propose to do about the extremist roaming the streets in say Luton chanting for the police to go to hell?

I'm all for freedom of speech but these people do not belong in our society. Freedom of speech cannot be just some open thing to abuse, there must be a degree of responsibility. Given they live here and many are born here, deportation is not an option. So the options are we just go all liberal and allow them to preach hatred or jail them.

Preach all this bollocks about police to burn in hell? These people are openly saying they do not want to and will not respect the law of the land? They hide behind freedom of speech and not actually committing a crime under our law. This is the issue for me, they are like people who avoid tax with clever workarounds. They are very difficult to pin down and slippery as ****. Unfortunately the consequences of this kind of disease is a lot more serious than tax evasion.

Once a tax loophole is discovered, it is closed off by law. I don't want to live in a police state more than the next man. I don't want people to start taking up arms or becoming violent. I don't people becoming irrational in their response to Islam, Muslims or religion in general. However unless we start to close these loopholes and deal with the issue through legislation, I can only see it growing.

I can feel it on here and in general. This is quickly escalating into a rising hatred of muslims. It is unfair and undoubtedly fueling these bastards towards their goals. As an atheist its a difficult one, I think religion is stupid. As a human being however, I am wholeheartedly in the camp of live and let live. If people want to believe in their various gods then so be it. However if in the course of that you enter into the world shown above and worse, then I am firmly in the camp of **** you and rot in prison. However the law needs to be the way they end up there, we need to retain our dignity and righteousness. So again it goes back to the government changing the law and handing out stiff penalties.

This won't resolve the issue and it will undoubtedly go underground. However it will help it dwindle. Its going to be a long fight so best employ a long term strategy. We can't just have 100's of these sort of ****hawks roaming our streets freely. Its not right. They are going unchecked and that is allowing them to grow, and fostering hatred and the rise of the likes of the BNP etc.

If the jails aren't working then sort that out. Don't decide it isn't the solution. Yes its a huge burden on the taxpayer. A burden worth paying.

 

Not regular jails, POW camps. Out on some scottish island or in he atlantic. St. Helena should do fine. Has to be a guantanamo style operation. No korans either. Just lock them up under detention, not a penal sentence. Detention until the conflict is over, which probably won't be in their lifetime.

 

People say how these people are British, but they only play this card when it becomes beneficial to them. Most radicalised and fundamentalist Muslims do not see nationality, only religion. They place being a Muslim above being British.

As that's the case, irrelevant of where they are from, if they genuinely believe in the ISIS message and ideology they can join their brothers in arms in Iraq. Round them up put them on a military plane, give them a parachute and drop them off in Iraq. If they want to fight and want war, we can do it on our terms in their country, not on their terms in our country involving innocent people.

I saw a tweet that said "Paedophiles rightfully get sent down for accessing indecent material. Extremists should get the same , anybody viewing pro Isis material."
This should apply.

 

500 live investigations? Round them up.

Think about it. How many lawyers are there really to take up the noble cause of defending these scumfucks? Not more than a dozen and the public should make those lawyers feel uncomfortable, so there ought to be even less going forward. As Sam says, why do paedos get locked away for looking at kiddy porn but jihadis walk around freely after praying to ISIS flag in a regents park? WTF? And why are their faces blurred when the faces of victims and people caught up in atrocities are visible for everyone to see?

 

Those women on that Luton video look like something out of the Life of Brian. Crackers.

 

Agreed. In the USA many more people get shot and killed by their own children accidentally each year than by terrorists. That doesn't make great headlines though.

The issue isn't that some people think things should be done and others don't. The way some people try to polarise views of others incorrectly is lazy and misleading, it's fair to say as a starting point that everyone thinks terrorism and murdering is a bad thing and should be prevented where possible. Where people differ is over how big a problem it actually is and then what measures are reasonable to deal with it. This are both very emotive grey areas.

How big a problem is it? Well as a cause of death it's off the scale. The bottom of the scale that is. 61,000 people died of dementia in the last year and the government have cut funding on care, medical treatment and are trying to push payment onto the dementia sufferers themselves. Hell over 1,000 people die each year falling down the stairs. If people want to play a numbers game then terrorism is a minute problem to the point of insignificance. So lets forget about the numbers then if you want. Windy said that if it was a member of my (though he wasn't talking to me at the time) family or a friend who had been killed in the terrorist attack then I would think differently. That may be true but is that not the case for pretty much every cause of death? If my wife gets run over by a drunk driver I'm unlikely to think "oh well these things happen", if my mother develops dementia (the leading cause of death in women I think) I have a suspicion I'll be a tad upset and if one of my sons takes his own life (suicide is shockingly the leading cause of death amongst men from 18-30, what the hell does that say about our country!) I'd probably not get over it ever either - the level of funding for mental health in this country has also been cut drastically, especially amongst children.

Terrorism is bad, it is a problem but my opinion is that it's a sideshow to the actual problems we have. There is a lot of hyperbole around and it seems that anyone who says anything suggesting there are bigger or other issues get put in a box with ISIS sympathisers.

What do we do? Well I tell you what will make no difference whatsoever. Theresa May saying they will get longer sentences - the suicide bomber and the men who got shot. Pretty sure that, as far as deterrents go it's not a great one. Similar to many gangs jail-time, if served, is often seen as a badge of honour. We could of course try to break the internet but no-one is actually sure it is possible, most think it sort of isn't. It's hard to say, to the point of impossible, but my opinion (and it is just an opinion) is this: most wars end when the people you are fighting with stop. Not because you've killed them all or bombed them all or beaten them up but because they've had enough. In the world wars eventually Germans were living in too much poverty and hunger so revolted (as did the Russians but they sort of weren't our enemy). You cut out the supply lines and starve them out. That isn't going to other countries and bombing them, that merely scratches the surface and works to recruit as many as you kill (or significantly more) - it also creates moral ambiguity in ex-pat groups from those countries who accept that terrorism doesn't represent them but don't like that their country is being bombed either. It's reaching out to the moderates, making the terrorists appear for what they really are, highlighting the differences between the faith they claim to support and the realities of the faith, highlighting how many muslims have been killed by ISIS (for more than westerners). Drive wedges between moderate supporters and fantasists, once their mothers get wind of what they're planning they'll soon put a stop to them!

 

One of the cowardly murderers has been described as a 'doting father and chatty arsenal fan'.

And yet on Saturday night, he and two others killed seven and injured nearly 50 before they were shot dead.

What would possess anyone to throw their own lives away and how many more of them are out there? They put their own hatred before their love for their family and their children.

 

100% they will charge the copper who fired the last shot, two minutes after the others, to finish off one of the twitchers.