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Off Topic Manchester Terror Attack

Discussion in 'Newcastle United' started by Albert's Chip Shop, May 23, 2017.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Well-Known Member

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    This also goes back to the "fighting clean vs fighting dirty" points from a few entries further up. The reason that most extremist plots get rumbled is that the plotters' neighbours etc. report them - - - as they did the arena bomber. The reason that happens is that anyone not completely warped can see that the British police/security services are better people than the bombers. As GHB says, often they are reporting something they are not sure is a real threat. Once the police/security services start carrying out a bit of torture and assassination the line between the good guys and the bad guys starts getting kind of blurry. You might decide never to report anyone to the bastards who tortured your cousin. You certainly would think a lot more carefully about reporting something that strikes you as kind of suspicious if you thought it meant that someone might get rounded up and beaten ****less as a result. Less information gets volunteered. Fewer plots get rumbled.
     
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  2. Sheikh_of_Araby

    Sheikh_of_Araby Well-Known Member

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    I see our Security Services have been slated over this. I think that is a little unfair to be honest. The number of plots they foil each year is staggering. GCHQ and MI5 together with the Police do a pretty damn fine job of keeping us largely safe and don't get enough credit.
     
    #202
  3. Joelinton's Right Foot

    Joelinton's Right Foot Worth Every Penny
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    You'd probably expect me to disagree with that bit and I do. What he is amazing at though is getting away with it when they aren't sound. He has an amazing ability of keeping the debate in his comfort zone. I think the best example of that was about an hour after the referendum polls closed. Early results looked bad for leave and he said on TV that if it turns out that the result was close and it turned out that 48% of people had voted leave then it would be very wrong to argue that the decision had been made once and for all. He actually used the 48% figure in his quote. If things had been the other way around he would never have let Cameron off the hook for saying that if leave had got 48%. And yet he managed to avoid any big fallout from saying that. I'm not getting into the rights and wrongs about the referendum again, just using it as an example of how he is very very good at controlling the discussion compared to politicians who oppose him. He would have torn his opponents to shreds if the boot was on the other foot. They just rolled over and let him tickle their tummies.
     
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  4. InBiscanWeTrust

    InBiscanWeTrust Rome, London, Paris, Rome, Istanbul, Madrid
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    Thing is, you only hear about them when something goes wrong or is missed. Like a lot of things, you don't hear about all the good that goes on and people generally take it for granted. Things like nhs you hear a few nice stories but majority is when **** goes wrong, must be horrible for confidence of nurses only ever seeing people slam the work you do.
     
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  5. Joelinton's Right Foot

    Joelinton's Right Foot Worth Every Penny
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    I've just been looking for a link to highlight what you said, but i think it has been deleted. A few years ago I had emergency care at North Tyneside Hospital. I was so impressed with how I was treated that I wanted to leave positive feedback for the doctors and nurses on the NHS Choices website. One of the other comments on there about the A&E department was a complaint from a woman whose father had been admitted during the night with a heart attack. This isn't word for word, but it went along the lines of '....we ended up staying in hospital with my father for nearly 24 hours and at no point was I offered a cup of tea even though the cafe was closed.'

    Some people love to focus on the negatives even when a member of their family's life has been saved. It looks like the comment has been removed now though.
     
    #205
  6. GeordieHalfbreed

    GeordieHalfbreed Well-Known Member

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    Not unlike being a defender really. Play a blinder and it's unlikely to be notice. Make one cock-up that leads to a goal...

    I'm a (highly mediocre) right-back. Can you tell?
     
    #206
  7. Sheikh_of_Araby

    Sheikh_of_Araby Well-Known Member

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    Daryl Janmaat in disguise?
     
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  8. Dorty Dogbreath

    Dorty Dogbreath keeper of the glow

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    That's one hell of a family tree there mate! :cheesy:
     
    #208
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  9. GeordieHalfbreed

    GeordieHalfbreed Well-Known Member

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    More of a bramble bush than a tree.

    Hmmm. Bramble. Maybe that explains my skills as a defender...
     
    #209
    Marra SAFC 77 likes this.
  10. Dorty Dogbreath

    Dorty Dogbreath keeper of the glow

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    :cheesy:

    Where do you live Halfbreed?
     
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  11. Albert's Chip Shop

    Albert's Chip Shop Top Grafter
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    This
     
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  12. Albert's Chip Shop

    Albert's Chip Shop Top Grafter
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    The pay is dog **** too.
     
    #212
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  13. Beardsley's Rancid Sack

    Beardsley's Rancid Sack Well-Known Member

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    I'm not warping anything mate. Everything I have said regarding history and demographics are fact - I have no cause to lie and it wouldn't benefit anyone if I were. I hear this radicalisation via 'websites' often croping up - nearly 50 percent of the 1700 plus Mosques in Britain are under Deobandi dominace - strict ultra conservative Islam. That is a massive problem along with another 5% under Salafists. It will preach hate and undermining of Western values and democracy any opportunity. . Many within the Muslim community know this but again would be totally ostracised from their community if the beans were spilled and instead resort back into Taqiyah or Tawriya mode.

    Radicalisation within the prison system again - massive problem. If we look at pew research across France - it has a prison population of just over 67,000 - of which 47,000 are Muslim and from only 11% of the overall population. Nearly 27% of French Muslims betwen the ages of 18-24 have a positive attitude on Isis. In this country some 25% of British Muslims in some form support suicide bombing. Again roughly the same though violence was acceptable inregard to the Danish magazine's cartoon depicting Mohammed. This isn't a tiny minoriy - we are talkng ten of thousands of people. I won't even get to attitudes regarding homosexuality as we would be here all day.

    The reason why immigration is worrying is the thought of bringing in millions of third world, low IQ Muslims whose only real commonality is their faith. Many see the stupidity of Western governments as the will of Allah. This is the Hijra - the great migration - as Mohammed did from Mecca to Medina. Fate is strong with these people and see it as God's will to turn Europe Islamic. Not in a decade, maybe not in 50 years but eventually they believe it will happen.

    You say you are Jewish and Zionist - you support a strong Israel with borders and strength. I can respect that and your opinion. How long would Israel last if it let millions of Muslims pour into their country and allowing, over time, the Jewish majority to become a minority? It would be like Lebanon but even worse.
     
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    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  14. Heed

    Heed well known cheat

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    Farage was Charismatic, which is why UKIP were doing well.
     
    #214
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  15. Dorty Dogbreath

    Dorty Dogbreath keeper of the glow

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    Frightening.
     
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  16. Joelinton's Right Foot

    Joelinton's Right Foot Worth Every Penny
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    Radicalisation in French prisons is a massive problem, but even the right wing Adam Smith Institute has said that figure is incorrect and highly overstated. Nobody knows exactly how many muslims are in French prisons but it is likely somewhere between 18,000 and 25,000. Still massively disproportionate compared to the muslim population though.

    https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/are-70-of-frances-prison-inmates-muslims
     
    #216
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  17. GeordieHalfbreed

    GeordieHalfbreed Well-Known Member

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    I'm not disputing the issues you raise. Clearly we disagree on the approach to addressing them - personally I think you underestimate the value of moderate Muslims as allies in this struggle. Maybe I'm overestimating them. Still, history tells us that enlightenment values (or similar) tend to prevail over fundamentalism of religion or politics in the long run. It would take a lot to convince me that's not the way to go.

    Israel is hardly the poster child for dealing with these issues. Personally I think if the state continues down the road it's on then it will collapse within 50 years. However that's a whole other discussion, and one I refuse to have without a drink in my hand.
     
    #217
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  18. Warmir Pouchov

    Warmir Pouchov Better than JPF

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    I think the problem is that to most people this is a problem which seems rife within the Islamic community. You know when people say it's not acceptable that Muslim people are not reporting everything out of fear of being ostracised, three main defences are lodged. 1. The pressure and anger from others is making them with withdraw 2. They fear being ostracised by their own 3. We don't realise how many they do report and are foiled

    Point 3 is not really of any comfort is it? I mean I've never felt the need to report anyone I know within my community because he or she is a threat. I dare say most find themselves in a similar situ. Why does Islam have such a big problem? And why do Muslims often claim it doesn't, whether they are moderate or otherwise? Nobody is saying every Muslim knows a potential bomber, but some of them do, certainly more than in the any other cultural communities in this country.

    I can see why people want us to take drastic action. We've opened our doors and people are not happy to accept the ratio of bad apples that are appearing. I also understand your idea of patience and keeping on with the good path. I just think you're asking a lot of people who already reside here whatever their religion etc. Accepting deaths of by bombings etc is difficult.

    The other thing I find frustrating at wrong is people expecting people to not react irrationally, justifying by saying more people die by this method or that one, that is just plain insulting for people. Those things may be factual but like it or not this kind of **** evokes very different emotions for most people.

    This thing where people say we've brought this on ourselves with our foreign policy. To a certain degree I know what they mean - why don't we just let these countries get on with it eh? is the understandable soundbyte you get. Not all of our involvement is innocent of course, indeed we've probably sparked some/many conflicts for gain. People see this too and it is adding to the anger/frustration.
     
    #218
  19. Joelinton's Right Foot

    Joelinton's Right Foot Worth Every Penny
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    That's the whole point of what they do. It is designed to bring terror. The actual risks may be disproportionately small but that is no comfort for those who do suffer and makes no difference to the emotion it brings out in all of us when we see innocents blown up. It's a natural reaction rather than a logical one.
     
    #219
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  20. NUFCBRONX

    NUFCBRONX Active Member

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    Yah. This is very true. For the past decade or so I've had a lot of sick (old) relatives, and for the most part North Tyneside has been amazing. In fact in many respects the treatment has been as good as over here. We did run into a bad Dr. But that can happen anywhere. The system is, however, a bit bare bones (as it should be) because it is there to deliver medical treatment and not play Lyons Coffee House.

    At any rate, your point is well taken. People do tend to focus on the wrong things and dwell to much on anything negative.
     
    #220
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