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Off Topic GENERAL ELECTION CALLED - 8th JUNE 2017

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by KIO, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. KIO

    KIO Well-Known Member

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    Well said KEMP sums up Teresa May perfectly, the Tories SHOULD have won by a landslide and it was totally down to her and her alone that they didn't IMO <applause>
     
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  2. ThaiCanary

    ThaiCanary Well-Known Member

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    Conspiracy talk or perhaps an element of truth in it?

    Worth a listen and so much of what he highlights certainly does indicate that something may have been going on in the background.

     
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  3. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Certainly an entertaining one to listen to, but it has several major flaws:

    (1) He has the same misunderstanding "trading on WTO terms" (or possibly he doesn't, he just likes to misrepresent it). This is not a "fall back option". We would have to negotiate WTO terms afresh instead. So no deal wouldn't be better than a bad deal. No deal would be no deal at all. This is not a case of "oh, if the price the EU asks for the nice roast dinner is too much, we just walk away and have a ham sandwich instead". There is no ham sandwich. We go hungry. No deal is worse than a bad deal, unfortunately.

    (2) He repeats that the British Press favours remain. This is nonsense - you only had to read the Daily Mail's "CRUSH THE SABOTEURS" headline to see that (feeling pretty crushed btw). You only had to read a little bit of the Press's (including the BBC!?!) disgraceful treatment of Corbyn (and Abbott). Sure, the Guardian and the Economist perhaps, but their readership is tiny.

    (3) He thinks the elite don't want Brexit. This doesn't stack up. The Tory Party are the elite of the elite. Boris Johnson is an ex-Etonian, Rees-Mogg and the rest equally elite. The Leave campaign was funded by billionaire Robert Mercer, had the support of very wealthy landowners. Liam Fox has had links to elitist supra-national organisations working to impose far right libertarian policies since he got into politics (and of course that led to the scandal he was embroiled in that nearly saw him out of politics).

    So he can't be right to suggest that the elite are trying to subvert Brexit, because Brexit has only ever been a Tory Party civil war, the old elite (wealthy landowners etc) against the new elite (metropolitan globalists). The feelings and needs of normal people has never been the focus.

    The reality is, the old elite ran an excellent campaign where they harnessed the justifiable anger of normal people and got them to direct it at Brexit. However, you can't fool people for long - sooner or later they were going to realise Brexit had nothing to do with social justice and wasn't going to improve their lot at all (and could very well make it worse).

    What Corbyn managed to do was drag the debate some way away from Tory internecine struggles and get people properly thinking about social justice and the ruinous effect austerity is having on this country and individuals. He didn't fully succeed (look how many of the older generation lapped up Tory and Press propaganda), but he did a decent job.


    Finally, this radio presenter cannot be taken seriously in any event, because he supports David Icke (who literally believes lizards control the world...) and is an outspoken anti-Semite.
     
    #343
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  4. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that Lizards don't control the world? Be careful you wouldn't want to anger our scaley overlords!
    please log in to view this image

    Bah!
     
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  5. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    Don't really want to get into this but here goes

    I don't know if he's misunderstanding the rules or you are. Maybe it just semantics because if we left with no deal there would still be trade between the EU & the UK under WTO rules, unless of course either party decided to leave the WTO. The EU trades on a daily baises with countries (that are not a member of the single market or with which it doesn't have a trade agreement with) under WTO rules. The EU would not be allowed to discriminate against the UK specifically, and we would face the same tariffs that any country without a free trade agreement with the EU would.

    Of course it's much more complicated than that and there is a massive difference between goods & services, but for practical purpose it is reasonable to say that the result of leaving without a deal will be to continue trade under WTO rules, in relation to goods at least.

    https://fullfact.org/europe/tariffs-and-barriers-trade-between-britain-and-eu/

    I submit this post for information only and not to start a long detailed arguement.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  6. ThaiCanary

    ThaiCanary Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I was not suggesting I believed all he had to say, indeed some of it went over my head if I am being honest but he did raise some interesting views on some of the questions I was asking myself prior to election day. It is unlikely that the full "truth" will be known

    1. Why did she have to call an election? I do not believe she really needed to but did and I don not buy the reason given by Mrs May.
    2. Brexit did not feature a great deal, much less than I expected from either side
    3. The Tory manifesto was utterly ridiculous
    4. Labour seemed to be offering goodies for free to win the younger generation over (the same generation that will pay for those freebies for the next 5, 10, 15 years) - yet very little was made of this.
    5. Security of the nation did not get anywhere near as much prominence as I would have expected (or liked to have seen)

    All in all I felt is was a bizarre election for so many reasons.
     
    #346
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  7. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    No, we would have to negotiate individual tariff schedules with each WTO member in order to trade on WTO terms (currently we just use the whole EU tariff schedule). Some of those we would be able to guess and resolve easily, and we might even just do it as a percentage of specific line items in each schedule based on the size of the UK to the EU. However, many of the export tariffs won't be important to us (Polish vodka) and some will be more important (high tech equipment perhaps) so we would be seeking bigger allocations in the latter and smaller in the former. The question then is, how much? And the risk is it only takes a few WTO members to object or try to seek advantage to hamstring us on our WTO tariff schedules.

    In any event, even if we could trade on WTO terms because we could get that through, it would still be deeply unpleasant for imports, substantially increase our trade deficit and probably have a terrible effect on inflation (not lease because of the exchange rate impact).

    Services as you say don't really apply to WTO terms, but in a sense that actually makes it even worse given that services is our major export. That's actually the one we want.
     
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  8. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    I agree it was bizarre. I think there is a lot to be said for the view that she is arrogant and closed off (certainly those are the reports even from her own ministers who felt shut out on the campaign). She (or her advisers) made it a presidential style personality campaign foolishly given she has no personality (she thinks it's naughty to run through fields of wheat!)
     
    #348
  9. ThaiCanary

    ThaiCanary Well-Known Member

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    When she first stepped up as the leader it was the first time I took any real notice of her (being over here I don't normally follow UK politics much now - but will from now on). I got the impression that she was similar to Maggie, certainly in the manner in which she delivered her message - in a very authoritarian way and quite liked what I heard.

    Since that time, I am not at all convinced she is actually leading the party and others in the background are steering the ship, as I now think she lacks the conviction in what she is saying, not unusual when delivering someone else's ideas when you do not fully support them.
     
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  10. Cruyff's Turn.

    Cruyff's Turn. Active Member

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    Thatcher in the Rye!
     
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  11. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but I think that's wrong we are members of the WTO in our own right (or will be the moment we leave the EU). We current trade with other countries, that the EU does not have a trade agreement with, under WTO rules.

    https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

    Anyway lets forget it. I accept that you have one view and I have another. We will just have to wait and see.
     
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  12. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    We are a WTO member, but that's not what I said.

    We trade under the EU tariff schedules. We do not have our own tariff schedules. That is the problem.

    It's not another view. It's a fact. You really are a prize twat, you know that? All this "I don't want an argument" when in reality you just want to stop anyone disagreeing with you. It seems every single comment you have made to me in the last year has always been with little snide digs. Either engage with me or just **** off and put me on ignore.

    So don't reply and then tell me you don't want to hear what I have to say, it makes you sound like an arrogant tosser who's uninterested in having any sort of debate whatsoever, a Robert Mugabe. Either reply and discuss or ignore and don't contribute at all. The reason it annoys me is you never used to be like this, you tended to be up for healthy debate, but it seems quite clear that you've now thrown your toys out of the pram because you don't like anyone bringing up anything that undermines your blinkered world view. I get that you've been backed into a corner on Brexit and suchlike and therefore feel you've got too much pride at stake, but this is a football forum ffs, I don't care of I or you or anyone got some little facts wrong (or even big facts) on Brexit - it's really not important. Let's just live and let live eh?
     
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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  13. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Christ Rob, when you lay into people like that at the drop of the hat, can youreally be surprised if someone doesn't want to engage with you on something like this?
     
    #353
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  14. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    That's not quite the point DH. It's hardly at the drop of a hat. Canario has replied to loads of my posts with words to the effect of "I don't want you to reply to anything I have to say, but X, Y, Z".

    I don't mind if he doesn't want to engage with me, that's fair enough I appreciate I am not to all tastes. But if he doesn't want to engage with me, he shouldn't. And yet he repeatedly engages with me and tells me he doesn't want to hear my response. He basically just wants to throw abuse at me. That was my point.

    I don't really think that's unreasonable, but fine if you disagree. All I'm saying is it's not really that surprising if I get annoyed when I find someone keeps directing at me this:

    "Don't really want to get into this but here goes"

    and this

    "I submit this post for information only and not to start a long detailed argument."

    and this

    "Don't bother replying further as I don't intend to respond to any comments you may make."


    It think I'm entitled to tell that person not to bother replying to me if that's their approach!
     
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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  15. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    Just agree with Rob or he'll write another essay getting all angry and insulting.

    "Not wanting to get into this again" would suggest he predicted you would get all uppity and unnecessarily abusive he was correct.

    Being a lawyer I am surpised you labelled David Icke as an anti semite .
     
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  16. ncgandy

    ncgandy Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know you were a lawyer
     
    #356
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  17. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    Better than that I'm a Barista. <laugh>
     
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  18. zogean_king

    zogean_king Well-Known Member

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    I thought they made coffee!
     
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  19. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Here we go
     
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  20. General Melchett

    General Melchett Well-Known Member

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    Could you elaborate Rob, that is some way short of your normal essay! :emoticon-0110-tongu

    Bah!
     
    #360
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