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Match Day Thread Everton v Manchester United

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Chief, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. Red Hadron Collider

    Red Hadron Collider The Hammerhead

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    Are you sure he hasn't finally shot his bolt?
     
    #101
  2. Swarbs

    Swarbs Well-Known Member
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    Very premature to say that - for all his struggles this season he still has a higher win percentage at Utd than Klopp at Liverpool and Pochettino at Spurs.

    He is currently failing to meet his own high standards for success, but writing him off on the basis of a few months at a completely new club, with a major hangover from the last manager, would be a massive error. After all, didn't your lot spend the last 12 months telling us not to do the same about Klopp?
     
    #102
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  3. Red Hadron Collider

    Red Hadron Collider The Hammerhead

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    Just a bit of devil's advocatism. He just seems to give the impression he's lost his way and looks downright miserable all the time. No disputing his track record and ability, but something doesn't seem right.
     
    #103
  4. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    It would be silly to sack him this season or next. Unless united is in danger of relegation, I say let him have a proper go. After all, he is qualified and is well paid to do the job. This business of sacking managers because they didn't get CL has to stop. At the end of his contract his performance can be assessed. If there has not been significant progress then he should be replaced.

    I can see him finishing mid table this season. I have some sympathy with him about the bad luck. one or two of these draws should/could have been wins. On the other hand he could also win one or two cups. Not impossible although it is not what he has been recruited for.

    He also says as justification that he has been criticised in the past for winning ugly. Now he is trying to win pretty. Which is new ground for him. Although this is true it should not excuse poor results.
     
    #104
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  5. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    I would agree that our results are directly tied to not being able to nail down our first 11. We don't even know our starting midfield players. We only know that regardless of the lineup, that Pogba and Ibra would play. It would be good for the team to know the first 11, or at least the first 9.

    As for entertaining football; I am all for that. But not at the expense of winning. Winning has to be top priority in my world. If winning becomes a habit, it makes it easier for players to gain the freedom to express themselves. Sadly, we have never got used to winning over these past three years. We always start a run and end it after three games.

    I have no doubt that Mourinho will come good. He definitely needs the time to get that Chelsea rash of last year out of his system. But by the time that happens, my fear is that it would be too late for us to make Top 4 this season. So I guess I'm already looking at next year as the time to complete his transition mentally and on the field. People forget how inconsistent Klopp was last year.
     
    #105
  6. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Rooney - his decline was fueled by the cumbersome style of football LVG played. Does that mean he's not still in decline? No. Do I think he's capable of controlling a game without Mata and/or Mkhitaryan next to him? No. Is he capable of consistently scoring and being a match winner? No. BUT is our attacking threat greater than the sum of our parts in the 2 games I've seen him play with the players mentioned? Yes. And that's the point. Give Rooney credit when he plays well. But criticise him when he doesn't - and rightly so. And there's no doubt in my mind that he was part of the problem for our 0-1 shots on goal in so many games in the last 2 seasons.

    Mourinho - the football is vastly more improved on last season and far more expansive and attacking. We win the ball back brilliantly and we actually play at tempo in the direction of the opposition goal - which is rather novel for us after the last two years! The frustration is in the final third and that seems to stem from too much tinkering with our team selection. And that last bit is where criticism lies fair and square with Mourinho. But to compare Mourinho on 4 months to LVG's two years seems ridiculous.

    I think Mourinho's biggest mistake was not buying a RB and another CB, personally. For someone who builds from the back, I find that a real surprise. I wouldn't have minded winning games 1-0 playing the way we have because we played well in all those games - Stoke, Burnley, Arsenal, West Ham. And then Mourinho would've been hailed as the second coming. It's all about fine margins.
     
    #106
  7. Diego

    Diego Lone Ranger

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    TBF we have lost Bailly, Smalling and Shaw for a long period all at the same time, who can say if those draws could have turned out as wins if we had only lost those players 1 or 2 at a time (staggered).
    Valencia has not done a bad job at RB and adds a lot to the attack, if you replace him with a great RB you could lose some of that attacking intent.
    Our biggest problem is a glaring one, we don't score enough goals. The movement is fine, we create enough so what is it, are we just "unlucky" like Jose says, or is it a mental thing.
     
    #107
  8. CFC: Champs £launderx17

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    JM builds from the back?
     
    #108
  9. glazerfodder

    glazerfodder Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think Bailly has been a big miss for us. He made a fantastic start and was extremely comfortable in bringing the ball out through the middle rather than our current preference which seems to be to spray it out to the wings as a first resort.
     
    #109
  10. Red Hadron Collider

    Red Hadron Collider The Hammerhead

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    What the **** has Klopp got to do with your shortcomings? <doh>
     
    #110

  11. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Not really mate. Bailly was never going to be enough. We were all saying at least 2 positions at the back needed strengthening... and that was bare mimimum.

    I disagree with your second point also. I wouldn't expect a new manager to come in and the team to start banging in the goals. I expect there may be a period of settling in, a period of transition where our attacking threat takes time to gain momentum. However, the defence is easier to address to a certain extent with simple additions. Hence why we have more confidence when Bailly is in the side that not.
     
    #111
  12. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    It's an example of how time helps managers settle. Klopp was praised as a saviour even with his inconsistencies last year. Hence, the reference we need to give Mourinho time and not slate him after 5 months in the job.
     
    #112
  13. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    I think the first team players are starting to emerge. I would be surprised if he deviated a lot from this:

    GK: DeGea
    Defence: Valencia Bailly Jones Darmian
    Midfield: Herrera Carrick Pogba Mikhi (and one of Mata, martial, Rooney, Rashford , Lingard)
    Top: Ibra

    Our bench is the strongest it's been for years. I can see JM playing strong teams in all competitions.
     
    #113
  14. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    I don't think the midfield is as clear cut. Carrick is not going to play every game. And there is a real problem with playing Herrera and Carrick in that he won't drop Pogba which means he plays as AM and he's not as effective in that position. Mourinho needs to be brave and drop one of them 3. Or play Herrera as the number 10.
     
    #114
  15. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I wouldn't play Herrera as a 10. There are many players in front of him for that position. Carrick is not going to play every game. He'll play the league games. just like Rooney will only play the cup games. The new buys JM bought are now first teamers and the spine of the team. They'll play for all key United games.
     
    #115
  16. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Is Pogba really ahead of Herrera as a No 10? He's not a playmaker and doesn't score enough.

    I don't see the same stability/spine tbh. There are still too many changes and I think the sole purpose of everyone on the pitch seems to be to service Ibrahimovich, regardless of who plays. The opposition simply need to isolate Ibrah. I;ve said this before, we're brilliant at winning the ball back, the tempo of the game is generally good, we move the ball forward quickly enough, but all of that breaks down in the final third as Plan A, B, C and D is "get the ball to Ibrah".

    Here's one for everyone. When we play Spurs, watch who EVERY corner or free kick is played to.
     
    #116
  17. Stan

    Stan Stalker

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    If fit, Shaw has to play. However, I think he's on Mourinho's list.
     
    #117
  18. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    I am hoping Pogba doesn't get burnt out or has an injury. JM plays him in almost every single game (unless he is suspended). I can see why he gets played. Without him (with LVG), we passed in front of the opposition defence. And we would have ten sideways passes before even attempting to cut through and even then we would lose the ball because the intial play was so ponderous in the first place. At OT this kind of game was excruciating to watch. With Pogba, the balls gets into a dangerous area very quickly because he is brave and skillful enough to take it there or attempt the decisive pass. Yesterday, that pass to Ibra for the second goal was great.

    I am not saying for one moment that we are there yet. I think we are only at 60%-70% of what we can do. The Pogba/Mikhi partnership can only get better. Ibra is erratic but will score goals. We need to get another regular 20 goal striker like RVN.

    We are not getting the points to go with the performances and in the league that is fatal. At least we are not going to sleep watching football at OT <whistle>
     
    #118
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  19. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Heard someone saying on radio today that Zlatan is our highest scorer with 13 but our second highest is 3. And they were saying that someone else has to step up. That would usually be a fair point. But in this instance it's a stat which only tells half the story.

    How can others step up when ALL our football is about feeding Ibrah?? If everything goes to him, he either has to score or set up others. He's pretty poor at passing or assisting others. All of that is why the stats are the way they are.

    It's a coincidence you brought up RVN. All our football was focused on feeding Ruud during that period, and boy did he lap it up well. But selling Ruud was a calculated decision by Fergie to change our style of football so we created goalscorers from a wide range of positions. There was no single focal point. We had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez -and even Saha as the No 9 was a cog in our attack rather than a single focal point. Without that change we wouldn't have had the success that followed. Ruud, no matter how good he was (and he was a better goalscorer than Ibrah) limited our attack. I wonder whether Ibrah is not doing the same.
     
    #119
  20. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    He may do. But currently no one else is stepping up to the plate to score. We dominate games and we have the chances. We really should have scored more than twice the number of goals we have so far. This may be obvious but Ibra is a transition. And is part of the long journey to that top team we aspire to. Hopefully that journey is not as long as we had with busby going.

    The manager (and scouts) have to start looking now at some top replacements for him. And we need two high quality strikers when we really need that goal in the last 15 minutes. It is ironic that United are the worst at conceding in the last 10-15 minutes when they were the best at winning games at the end of games.
     
    #120

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