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Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    Corbyn arguing for an isolationist foreign policy in the interests of national security. It's a position, though I don't think national security has been his primary concern in the past, rather some knee jerk 'anti imperialist' agitprop.

    The fundamental argument is that our previous and current military involvement in Muslim countries is perceived as an attack on Islam by some of its followers and a justification for terror attacks, and if our prime duty is to protect our own citizens then we should avoid any such situations. Now no one in their right mind would claim that the result of these interventions has been wholly positive, but let's take a look at who we were/are actually trying to take down:
    The Taliban
    Al Qaeda/Bin Laden
    ISIS
    Gaddafi
    Saddam Hussein
    Assad (ish)
    If any 'non radical' Muslim feels that these groups/people (who between them have killed and tortured more Muslims than the west ever has) are representative of Islam as a whole (personally I doubt whether Gaddafi, Saddam or Assad gave/give a **** about Islam) then they are not 'non radical', they are fundamentalists already. Their only excuse could be total ignorance about why we were/are involved in these conflicts, and willingness to believe people (usually in mosques) who lie to them. In which case the problem is their religion, again.

    I realise that I am probably in a smallish minority happy with an interventionist foreign policy when it is directed against individuals and organisations who kill, torture and oppress at will. And I am not naive enough to think that we always intervene out of a moral obligation, there are always other, less savoury, motivations. And that the policy would never be applied to all such places, only where we think it could work. We certainly have to get better at it if we are going to continue these adventures, especially at what we leave behind. And it is a valid policy alternative not to engage because we think it makes us safer like that. But, given the example of Sweden above, and Belgium, what grounds would anyone have to think that non intervention will reduce the fundamentalist terror threat in the U.K.? Are the terrorists going to forget their perception of history because we promise to let them get on with it in their heartlands?
     
    #10701
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  2. TheBigDipper

    TheBigDipper Well-Known Member

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    In the short term, non-intervention might appeal to a lot of people. I can see it getting Labour some votes from some people previously planning to vote elsewhere.

    As to the effectiveness of such a policy, I agree with you. Sometimes, but you can't be dogmatic about it every time. You need to pick your fights, explain the reasons clearly without spin or bull and do a better job at the end so you don't end up with a country that hates you and wants to kill your children because we killed theirs because they killed ours because we killed theirs, etc...
     
    #10702
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  3. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you can justify the interventions in that they are trying to take down bad people, but, by and large we've just left behind chaos allowing similar or worse people to take over, whilst giving Muslim 'brothers' elsewhere excuses to attack us. By the way, do you not wonder why the Saudis (another brutal, repressive dictatorship) are not on the list? The fact that we sell them rather a lot of arms perhaps?

    The BBC's brief news round-up on Radio 5 just now led with.....

    'Boris Johnson has accused Jeremy Corbyn of a monstrous attempt to justify the actions of terrorists'

    Johnson was doing what he does compulsively, lying. Corbyn expressly said the opposite. However, there was no mention of what Corbyn actually said, just the context given that Johnson was reacting to a foreign policy speech earlier today.

    ****ing lefties.
     
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    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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  4. QPR999

    QPR999 Well-Known Member
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    That's a frightfully good post sir. ( #627 )
     
    #10704
  5. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

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    Why thank you my liege.
    Just heard Johnson on the wireless. I'd like to smash his face in. There is a serious policy discussion to be had here, but not with this self serving cheat.

    I can justify the principle of the interventions, I can't justify the execution and aftermath incompetence. But surely it's easier to fix competence than principle? Don't answer that.

    I would gladly cut all ties with the Saudis (not only a horrible regime but also a breeding ground for terrorists) and give them a good thumping at the first opportunity, regardless of lost arms sales. But of course we know why that won't happen. At the very least I'd like us to make a bit more fuss about their human rights, I don't buy this 'oh we do in private, that's the way to influence them' stuff, which is clearly bullshit as nothing ever improves - same with the Chinese.
     
    #10705
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  6. Staines R's

    Staines R's Well-Known Member

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    Just heading out from Staines station and find police with machine guns posted outside.....used to seeing it at the airport but not somewhere like here.

    Brings the threat home a bit
     
    #10706
  7. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    I could've understood that in Staines but not Staines-upon-Thames.
     
    #10707
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  8. Staines R's

    Staines R's Well-Known Member

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    I blame the 'Staines Massive'
     
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  9. kiwiqpr

    kiwiqpr Barnsie Mod

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    bit of an over reaction to a bit of graffiti on platform 1
     
    #10709
  10. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

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    Good post Stan. Picking our fights tends to be whether the 'aggressor' threatens our financial stability, ie Oil rather than altruistic concerns. Iraq and Libya were disastrous choices and the power vacuum these ill-thought out forays produced still haunt the whole region today. If 'regime change' was simply just that why did we ignore Zimbabwe which as a former colony may have deserved intervention?

    We now live in an age when such 'war' cannot be won militarily, in Afghanistan both Russia and the USA, supposedly the biggest military powers on Earth have both realised they can never fully succeed. With 'suicide terrorism' now in vogue there is little more that can be done without some form of internment, but how many would you have to cage? For every one taken out two more will replace them as the disaffected spread like a cancer.

    I fear we are now going to have to live with regular atrocities such as Manchester as the numbers of jihadis in our midst is far more than we can handle with our current security services. Whilst Corbyn has a point about our foreign policy mistakes they can't be undone and the thought of a 'pacifist' Prime Minister in the current climate doesn't bear thinking about...
     
    #10710

  11. kiwiqpr

    kiwiqpr Barnsie Mod

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    apparently i am
    66% tory
    58 libertarian
    56 ukip
    56 democratic unionist
    52 labour
    50 british national
    48 lib dem
    44 green
    43 snp
    41 plaid cymru
    36 sinn fein

    blimey
    have they left anyone out
     
    #10711
  12. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    Try reading the thread (post #50).
     
    #10712
  13. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    I don't want all Muslims or liberals on the next boat off this Island Stan.
    Look, I'm just more angry about this than I think I've ever been.
    In an ideal World we could all live as one on planet earth, with no wars and no hatred. But you and I know that this ain't an ideal World. I get the argument that going hard line may make things worse, but I can't think of anything worse than an 8 year old girl, full of holes, lying in the arms of a stranger, crying for her Mother!!
    I've had it mate. No more "trying to understand" these nut-jobs. That liberal approach, along with Labour's multi-cultural experiment is a large part of why we're where we are. Colin Parry on Question Time was trying to say that we need to talk to these people, but does anyone really think they'll listen. They don't have a political aim that we could try to discuss. They just want to kill us because we don't believe what they believe.
    Muslims have to stop whinging about feeling persecuted and start putting their house in order.
     
    #10713
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  14. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    We could also fund home security by cutting some of the overseas aid budget. Maybe divert a few billion to saving our kids from being blown to bits instead of sending money to Countries with their own space programme!
     
    #10714
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  15. Uber_Hoop

    Uber_Hoop Well-Known Member

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    I agree, although you might want to correct the typo.
     
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  16. QPR999

    QPR999 Well-Known Member
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    Does anyone else find this disturbing in light of what happened on Monday night? I personally think this is insensitive to the victims and their families.

     
    #10716
  17. kiwiqpr

    kiwiqpr Barnsie Mod

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    maybe he dosent want his money going to overseas pensioners
     
    #10717
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  18. 1982_Ranger

    1982_Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately I really cannot see how or where this will end. It's all very well 'real' muslims criticsing these extremist acts and feeling persecuted, but how willing are they really to help and what can they actually do?

    We've made a rod for our own back in being too soft and are now reaping the consequences. Someone made the point to me the other day, could you imagine a country like Pakistan allowing Christians to settle and build churches within their community? I don't suppose so.

    Short of banning the muslim faith, which is nigh on impossible and grossly unfair to proper muslims, what can be done? For every extremist arrested/taken out etc, there will be another to replace them.

    There is no answer and it will sadly get worse.
     
    #10718
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  19. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

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    I do mate, but we'll get hammered for saying it.
     
    #10719
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  20. 1982_Ranger

    1982_Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what is wrong with this country. Not the club's fault, just indicative of the society we now live in.
     
    #10720
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